condensafe!?

[WPH]

i over heard a couple of gas fitters in my local merchants discussing condensafe fittings and from what i gathered they where basicly saying by putting one of these condensafe fittings on you can run the condense line to a rain water pipe? is this right or have i over heard a couple of liars?

 

[Destroyer2813]

Yeah it neutralises the acidite in condense via limestone chippings same principal as a soakaway should be changed periodicaly as well

 

[Mbear]

U would still have the issue that if u get heavy rain then it could back fill and flood the boiler. Unless this fitting incorporates a check valve

 

[Mike Jackson]

Best bet is to leave an external air gap.

 

[WPH]

ok so i put this condensafe trap in and an air gap and its within the regs to put a condense into a rain water pipe? on the pretence that the condensafe is changed yearly

 

[Destroyer2813]

Yep you"ll be fine see plenty staight into downpipes no air gap no condensafe

 

[Halesowen1]

Yep you"ll be fine see plenty staight into downpipes no air gap no condensafe

Hundreds.

 

[Mbear]

Yep you"ll be fine see plenty staight into downpipes no air gap no condensafe

Having seen the damage not having a check valve on a condi into rainwater down pipe can cause. I would always recommend having one, it can cause hundreds of pounds worth of damage.

 

[Roger Welton]

Tun-dish outside is the way forward rather than a check valve (one less thing to go wrong!), also if you check the mi for these neutralizers most require replacement annually.

 

[GQuigley67]

i thought you weren't allowed the air break anymore into the rwp ??

but there are millions out there into RWPs, some are siiconed in. I have one customer where their condensate has frozen twice, caused damage twice and when i recommended the options they decided to leave it just now and disagreed with my option of upgrading to 32mm and insulating lol

 

[Mbear]

Condi pump is the best option if local internal waste isnt an option. They have a 4m head iirc so they'll do most installs

 

[johnp]

Hundreds.

And all wrong!

 

[gasmarc]

I have never used a condensafe before , I usually just run it where ever with a tundish inside and do the pipe work so it cannot back up , I havnt had a problem yet

 

[GrahamM]

"tundish inside"??
Then if the condensate becomes blocked bellow tundish you have acidic water leaking out uncontrollably.
Or, unlikely I know but then you also have an open vessel where POC may exit internally from the flue system.

Is an open condensate internally not a no no?

 

[SimonJohns]

"tundish inside"??
Then if the condensate becomes blocked bellow tundish you have acidic water leaking out uncontrollably.
Or, unlikely I know but then you also have an open vessel where POC may exit internally from the flue system.

Is an open condensate internally not a no no?

The condensate should be trapped inside the boiler. Btw. You should always run a condense internally

 

[johnnyplumb]

The condensate should be trapped inside the boiler. Btw. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS RUN A CONDENSE INTERNALLY

Not installed many boilers then have we, you certainly can run a condense pipe externally, use 32 or 38 mm pipe & lag, or fit a tracer cable.

 

[SimonJohns]

Not installed many boilers then have we, you certainly can run a condense pipe externally, use 32 or 38 mm pipe & lag, or fit a tracer cable.

I'm not an idiot. A condense pipe should be run internally as far as practically possible. To run external is good.

The point I was trying to make was that a condense can be terminated internally. So what's the issue with it going into a tundish other than it over spilling

 

[GQuigley67]

im pretty sure your not allowed to use a tundish internally with the condensate pipework, although the boiler has a trap it is still a possibility of POCs entering the room so now i think your not allowed to anymore but i may be wrong

 

[southcoastboile]

i once fitted a condence pump and read in the mis that the condence can cause irreversible dammage if you get it on your skin, i must have done it 100 times, has anyone else heared this or know what they were on about?

 

[johnnyplumb]

I'm not an idiot. A condense pipe should be run internally as far as practically possible. To run external is good.

The point I was trying to make was that a condense can be terminated internally. So what's the issue with it going into a tundish other than it over spilling

you've changed your tune, you've went from always run internally to 'to run externally is good', just trying to clear things up for the people who are on here to learn, thats all.

 

[AlexGas]

You can have the air break on the condensate pipe. Say, you are connecting a boiler (without integral condensate trap of at least 75mm) to a soil stack - you will have to fit an additional trap of 75mm with a visible air break between the boiler and the additional trap. So you could have an air gap. It's all in the BS6798.

 

[GrahamM]

im pretty sure your not allowed to use a tundish internally with the condensate pipework, although the boiler has a trap it is still a possibility of POCs entering the room so now i think your not allowed to anymore but i may be wrong

As per my previous post this is what I have always been told and is what I work by. The condensate must be completely enclosed all way to drain. At best if you have an open vessel there may be an uncontrollable spillage of acidic discharge spilling out. This alone should render it incorrect in my opinion. Never mind the very slim risk of POC's.

 

[AlexGas]

It is an internal soil stack.
Here is the BS:

4.3.4.2 Connection to a soil and vent stack system (Figure 1)
4.3.4.2.1 Connection to an internal soil and vent stack system
NOTE 1 Provided that the condensate drainage pipe meets the
requirements in 4.3.3 and 4.3.4, there is no length restriction.
The condensate drainage pipe shall incorporate a trap with a
minimum condensate seal of 75 mm. Many condensing boilers will
incorporate a condensate trap within the boiler; if this condensate
trap has a condensate seal of less than 75 mm, then an additional trap
of 75 mm shall be fitted with a visible air break between the boiler
and the additional trap.

 

[AlexGas]

Here's the Figure 1:

 

[GQuigley67]

i was under the impression that the regulations changed to not allowing this anymore

 

[AlexGas]

It is from BS 6798:2009 - the current BS, I've just checked it on the BSI Shop.

 

[GrahamM]

Is this from the current BS 6798:2009? I only have the 2005 version which is out of date.
This is how it should be done with an air break in place.
How should a condensate pipe be installed? - Worcester, Bosch Group UK installer site

 

[AlexGas]

Yes, BS 6798:2009 is the current BS.

 

[AlexGas]

Is this from the current BS 6798:2009? I only have the 2005 version which is out of date.
This is how it should be done with an air break in place.
How should a condensate pipe be installed? - Worcester, Bosch Group UK installer site

Yes, it's covered by the BS too. I'd say most, if not all of the modern boilers would have an integral condensate trap of at least 75mm.

Looking at the BS - you could have an air gap on the condensate pipe - that's all I'm getting at.

 

[GrahamM]

Yes. An air gap with the condi piped downstream of another trap. But using a tundish as mentioned is just an open vessel without any trap in place to minimise any chance of POC's.
Any chance of the 2009 version of BS6798 for future reference?:wink:

 

[Mbear]

Boilers do have traps but sum need secondary traps, for instance ideal isars. U should fit a 'u' bend or trap and it should be 75mm deep especially if u are using an internal tundish for an air gap. An Isar with an open ended condi pipe inside property with no 2ndary trap is ID. The internal trap isn't deep enough

 

[SimonJohns]

Boilers do have traps but sum need secondary traps, for instance ideal isars. U should fit a 'u' bend or trap and it should be 75mm deep especially if u are using an internal tundish for an air gap. An Isar with an open ended condi pipe inside property with no 2ndary trap is ID. The internal trap isn't deep enough

Never heard of that. And just checked isar manual and even that suggests fitting an air gap?

 

[Mbear]

Sorry if poc's leaving aid gap then ID, if no poc's leaving air then AR.
Pages22-24 condi pipe install. Shows a 75mm trap between boiler and air gap.

So it can go, boiler, 75mm trap , air gap (sink plug hole for eg), then soakaway/main stack. The boiler trap isnt deep enough, basically I think it's a 25mm internal boiler trap and ideal reckon the fan could blow through it.

 

[SimonJohns]

The 75mm trap is after the air gap

 

[SimonJohns]

 

[Mbear]

No it's not, page 21, section 23? Isar he24 mi

 

[SimonJohns]

Very sorry. I stand corrected.

Can't believe that. I would of thought it would of had to be integral to the boiler

 

[Mike Jackson]

Just think of when you fit a condense pump. The condense pipe isn't sealed to the unit and these are sited internally.

 

[GQuigley67]

I came across an Isar going into a tundish with no trap this was fitted at time of build

 

[Mbear]

Just think of when you fit a condense pump. The condense pipe isn't sealed to the unit and these are sited internally.

If its an Isar, I fit a 75mm trap b4 it enters the condi pump.

 

[Mbear]

I came across an Isar going into a tundish with no trapView attachment 5132 this was fitted at time of build

Defo AR

 

[Mbear]

Very sorry. I stand corrected.

Can't believe that. I would of thought it would of had to be integral to the boiler

There is an integral one fitted, however it's not deep enough. Isar was built to fit in the small cupboards and they gave up a suitable sized trap inside for space saving. Obviously their answer was to add an external trap to get round the issue

 

[Mike Jackson]

There is an integral one fitted, however it's not deep enough. Isar was built to fit in the small cupboards and they gave up a suitable sized trap inside for space saving. Obviously their answer was to add an external trap to get round the issue

And what an abortion that is.

 

[Mbear]

And what an abortion that is.

True dat!!

 

[howard011]

Just finished a big contract 250 installs, me and my boss installed 40 full systems, right at the end of the contract the council decided that they wanted these condensafes put in, pretty easy to install and had to write the date on them when they were put in.. can u guess who had to go back and do them

 

[Mbear]

Just finished a big contract 250 installs, me and my boss installed 40 full systems, right at the end of the contract the council decided that they wanted these condensafes put in, pretty easy to install and had to write the date on them when they were put in.. can u guess who had to go back and do them

Aslong as u got paid to do rework

 

[GQuigley67]

let me guess, your boss went back and fitted them ? :wink: