Combi boiler for a 4 bathroom house - Advice please

[Gray0689]

You thought early on this would do the job, now you know the specific model, is opinion still good if I can bear cost?

Yes if you can have the budget it's the best on market acv is Rolls Royce stuff
As said get on to acv and ask there advice they will give you a help they may even say the 35 is big enough as they are super quick re heat times

 

[Dotty]

ACV HeatMaster Gas Condensing Combination Boiler 85tc. Also do a 35tc which is a littler smaller but does not have comparable flow rate.

Which you will require a commercial guy for. And as I said before - we're expensive!

I would imagine you currently have a u6 meter. The ACV requires 8m3 of gas per hour. assuming you also have a gas cooker or range this meter WILL be undersized. You're going to require a u16 or a g10 meter. An additional cost!

I can't even find a price online for the ACV other than the usual 'email us for a quote' type sites so that tells me you'd be looking at splashing out £3-4k for one.

There are cheaper solutions that will give you what you want.

 

[Dotty]

But as said by Gray, it is a decent boiler.

 

[Rickster123]

View Profile: Linkyplumb - Plumbing Forum | Plumbing Advice | Plumbers Forums | A forum for plumbers advice in the UK

I think linky is quite close to you and a very knowledgable chap. Might be worth dropping him a pm for another quote.

 

[Gray0689]

Yes if you can have the budget it's the best on market acv is Rolls Royce stuff
As said get on to acv and ask there advice they will give you a help they may even say the 35 is big enough as they are super quick re heat times

I sent you a private message with an email address of a bloke I know at acv give him a shout may be able to give you advice

 

[timmyjane]

Which you will require a commercial guy for. And as I said before - we're expensive!

I would imagine you currently have a u6 meter. The ACV requires 8m3 of gas per hour. assuming you also have a gas cooker or range this meter WILL be undersized. You're going to require a u16 or a g10 meter. An additional cost!

I can't even find a price online for the ACV other than the usual 'email us for a quote' type sites so that tells me you'd be looking at splashing out £3-4k for one.

There are cheaper solutions that will give you what you want.

No gas cooker but have one gas fire. will check meters out. I know someone was quoted in a thread (not this one £2100 for the tc35 plus install) i think DIYnot.com. Be interesting to see cost of bigger unit. Its the space it frees up that is interesting.

 

[Dotty]

£2100 for the tc35 plus install

:whatchutalkingabout

 

[timmyjane]

meant the cost of unit £2100. Plus installation total cost for guy was 4k but no idea what pipe work he had done.

 

[Dotty]

Was thinking to myself either that guy's on a promise or he'd seriously muffed his costings up!

 

[Ermintrude]

Which you will require a commercial guy for. And as I said before - we're expensive!

I would imagine you currently have a u6 meter. The ACV requires 8m3 of gas per hour. assuming you also have a gas cooker or range this meter WILL be undersized. You're going to require a u16 or a g10 meter. An additional cost!

I can't even find a price online for the ACV other than the usual 'email us for a quote' type sites so that tells me you'd be looking at splashing out £3-4k for one.

There are cheaper solutions that will give you what you want.

Oooops. I said 85 in previous .... 35 is 4m3 85 is about 9 as above ? But get a cowboy in and he will fit it on a u6 with 15mm supply and save u £350..Be fine. He said....
It's expensive but will do what u need. Meter upgrades can be negotiated with suppliers. If you move suppliers u can sometimes strike it lucky.

Don't discount cheaper options but not much will match up?

 

[Dotty]

Oooops. I said 85 in previous .... 35 is 4m3 85 is about 9 as above ? But get a cowboy in and he will fit it on a u6 with 15mm supply and save u £350..Be fine. He said....
It's expensive but will do what u need. Meter upgrades can be negotiated with suppliers. If you move suppliers u can sometimes strike it lucky.

Don't discount cheaper options but not much will match up?

Don't think there would be much change out of £12k to supply and fit, allowing for a meter upgrade which could require a new upsized pipe from the main and all the digging or moling that would entail............

 

[Ermintrude]

U16 might not require re pipe ? Bigger houses up here have 1 1/2 iron with u16 some u6. Thought u could get 16m3 through a std iron service or a poly service?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

is this the unit :
Technology | ACV UK

no different to a power max(as said before ) ......

 

[Ermintrude]

Basically, it works and lasts longer, faster to recover and made by a company with history of quality and innovation

 

[Mike Jackson]

The ACV unit may well provide the flow rates required but you need to look at the plumbing system as a whole. If you've got long pipe runs to the showers you need to be looking at a secondary circulation system for the hot water to minimise the wait for hot water. I'm not familiar with the ACV unit and it may have the facility for a secondary return but there is no point in using a space saving option if it doesn't provide the performance you require.

 

[Ermintrude]

The ACV unit may well provide the flow rates required but you need to look at the plumbing system as a whole. If you've got long pipe runs to the showers you need to be looking at a secondary circulation system for the hot water to minimise the wait for hot water. I'm not familiar with the ACV unit and it may have the facility for a secondary return but there is no point in using a space saving option if it doesn't provide the performance you require.

Unless pipework is horrific and house has a 28mm 40m run to bathroom I wouldn't waste wonga on pump. Spend more in electricity and replacement pumps than u will save! Lagg pipes well, remove oversized and unused legs make system as "sporty" possible

 

[timmyjane]

All good stuff to consider and thanks. Unfortunately chap coming on Tuesday cancelled so cant answer any questions about pressure, meters etc yet:disappointed:

 

[Gray0689]

All good stuff to consider and thanks. Unfortunately chap coming on Tuesday cancelled so cant answer any questions about pressure, meters etc yet:disappointed:

If you post what area you are in maybe a member could help you out and price work for you

 

[timmyjane]

If you post what area you are in maybe a member could help you out and price work for you

PO18 8NS Bosham

Someone suggested posting on another part of this forum as well. How do I get to it Please?

 

[timmyjane]

PO18 8NS Bosham

Someone suggested posting on another part of this forum as well. How do I get to it Please?

Found it.

 

[Howsie]

Unless pipework is horrific and house has a 28mm 40m run to bathroom I wouldn't waste wonga on pump. Spend more in electricity and replacement pumps than u will save! Lagg pipes well, remove oversized and unused legs make system as "sporty" possible

But some people don't like waiting for their hot water never mind the wastage.

 

[timmyjane]

The ACV unit may well provide the flow rates required but you need to look at the plumbing system as a whole. If you've got long pipe runs to the showers you need to be looking at a secondary circulation system for the hot water to minimise the wait for hot water. I'm not familiar with the ACV unit and it may have the facility for a secondary return but there is no point in using a space saving option if it doesn't provide the performance you require.

How does an unvented boiler get around this? Situation could be unvented horizontal cylinder in the loft (Boiler likely ground floor as this is where gas inlets are) with a shower on the ground floor and loft. Same length of run, for either system. Would a secondary system be needed in both situations. Very reluctant to put anything 1st floor other than pipe runs.

Note room heights around 230 cm, ground and 1st floor at the mo. Max house footprint 10 metres square. Does this help. Absolute max pipe run I would envisage could be 13 metres long?

 

[timmyjane]

Queries

Heatmaster 85tc, out I think on cost alone, along with potential meter problems etc, to get full potential of it may have to upgrade pipework in the house, so too much to consider.

Still weighing pros and cons of 35/45 tc unit. easier connection all round. Still base cost will be more than decent sized unvented cylinder and system boiler. Back down to a lower flow rate with this one but still ok I think.

1. price consideration, which is going to cost me less to run over 5 years.

300 lt with great boiler say 30 - 40kw. Guess I'd have to heat a tank in the morning (majority used 1st thing), need a little during the day and say half a tank in the evening. It has to be at optimum heat between. 6 - 8.30 in morning and 5.30 - 8.30 in evening. Presume would need Boiler on heating 3 hrs a day.

The 45tc, 100 litre tank combi system. So still need to pre heat 100 litres in morning (1/2 hour), ready for morning rush. But rest could be on demand say another hour. 1.5 hrs a day. I have no idea how much gas is!

Then theres the central heating, which I presume would be same for both? On this basis think heating cost overall would be half, but may have that totally wrong.

2. One thing bothering me about both systems, seems both would be subject to a certain amount of limited pressure in the system and the same pipe sizes delivering the water throughout the house. Is there any reason from a pressure point of view one would be better than the other, remembering I want 3 showers running at exactly same time and rather it wasn't 3 dribbles? Question is about pressure rather than heat now for feel either system could deliver the hot water.

Guidance appreciated:confused5:

 

[SafeGasInstall]

any run over 12m must have a secondary return

 

[SafeGasInstall]

pressure wil not be a problem and running 3 showers at the same time from UHWC
You can pre set HW to be heated 30 to 45min before the demand and during the demand time

 

[Howsie]

Get a decent plumber in. They will cover all of this with you before you next birthday.

 

[timmyjane]

UHWC? would both systems (The combi with hot water tank, and the cylinder with standard boiler) be the same in terms of pressure delivered to showers.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

UHWC? would both systems (The combi with hot water tank, and the cylinder with standard boiler) be the same in terms of pressure delivered to showers.

sorry I dont understand that .
As Howsie said , time for a descent plumber to design and install , and not before your next birthday but before this Xmas

 

[timmyjane]

Would like to, but kinda want to have a good idea about what I want before the plumber I choose just suggests his favourite system, which he gets a discount for at his local yard. I'm an untrusting sort. Did put a request for a plumber on this forum, waiting for responses.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

where are you timmyjane ?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Would like to, but kinda want to have a good idea about what I want before the plumber I choose just suggests his favourite system, which he gets a discount for at his local yard. I'm an untrusting sort. Did put a request for a plumber on this forum, waiting for responses.

Your plumber will HAVE to design the system to suit you , not other way round .

 

[JCplumb]

PO18 8NS Bosham

 

[timmyjane]

Bosham PO18 8NS

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I think Michael Jackson is nearest one to you . I will let him now

 

[Howsie]

We are always happy to provide you with an estimate or just chat through your options.

Please disregard this.

 

[timmyjane]

Please disregard this.

sorry missed it.

 

[timmyjane]

Hi Guys

I originally posted asking about what boiler system to put in for a 4/5 bed home wishing to achieve 3 showers running concurrently without loss of pressure nor hot water. Looked into all sorts and got plenty of advice, one option I had found was a semi commercial combi with storage tank (was the bees knees), and am sure this would have done the job, however turned out to be mega bucks.

I was asked to post what option I went for and can thoroughly recommend: -

Worcester Greenstar system boiler with megaflow cylinder, also upgraded to 22/25 mm water supply to provide the flow rate needed. This all works beautifully, no loss of pressure, in fact the force that comes out of our old bath/shower unit is so high I really need to replace it with a fixed head so it does not thrash about. Plenty of hot water plenty of pressure and a reasonable price. Its all in the loft so no loss of space. In fact removal of the old gravity fed system has given me loads more space in the ensuite and loft.

On another matter, hubby just been made redundant and is thinking about retraining, hes 42, previously in Marketing but has great practical and mathematical skills. What could he earn as a plumber/heating engineer and are there any real gaps in the market if he wanted to specialise in a particular area?

 

[Gray0689]

In a word no

 

[Atouchofgas]

Just do a search on here and you will find loads of People wanting to work for free etc. market is over saturated

 

[Dotty]

Plasterers and brickies are usually busy.

 

[timmyjane]

Reason I asked as anyone that had been recommended to me I had to wait a couple of months for installation (and nearly two weeks for an initial visit), as they seemed to have contract work coming out of their ears. Same for Electrician (who was a friend so fitted me in in spare time). Carpenter was a little quicker, but feeling I got was construction and trade industries really picking up. Is it generally not like this nationwide.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Hi Timmyjane

There are a couple of issues.

The first is that "re-training" isn't as easy as it sounds.There are plenty of training providers that will take several grand of your husbands redundancy money, in exchange for a 6, 8 or 10 week course.

At the end of that course, he will not be a plumber. He will be a redundant marketing executive who has been on a 10 week plumbing course, in exactly the same way that a plumber going on a 10 week marketing course is still a plumber, not a marketing executive.

It takes between 5 and 10 years or varied training and experience to become a really good plumber. Longer if you have long periods doing the same, repetitive thing. The people that are in most demand, and getting the recommends, will have long waiting lists, but thats because they have put in the decades to get that good.

Some "fast track" plumbers do eventually make it to being excellent tradesmen - indeed there are several on this board. But I bet for every 10 that start, only one makes it to becoming a skilled tradesman. Probably another 2 bodge along at varying levels of incompetence for a year or so, and 7 never ever get paid work as plumbers.

Secondly, there is no shortage of wannabe plumbers. There is a huge backlog of people like your husband, who have done a course, and as others have mentioned, will post on this board offering to work for free to gain experience. Can hubby afford to do that? And at the risk of getting political, there is no shortage of east european plumbers of varying quality who will take up any upturn in demand.

 

[Aquazone]

In regards to waiting weeks for people to come and give you a quote, the best people with masses of experience, huge amounts of knowledge, pride in their work and good customer service will always be busy. It is getting to this point which is challenging for someone who wants to retrain.

You need to find a good plumber/heating engineer, persuade them to take you an as an apprentice, then 5 years later you might have enough knowledge to go on your own, but then you have to build up customer base, another 5-10 years. Your husband would be pushing 60 before he started seeing the fruits of his labour.

If you wanted a tap changing, there will be people who will do it same day for 30 quid. The market is saturated for the low skill jobs, but the job you had done wouldn't (or shouldn't) be undertaken by a 10 week fast track plumber.

I retrained myself but I was 25, didn't have a family, and had no choice as I needed to do something, and just happened to fall into this. That was 10 years ago, and still have bad days.

 

[rpm]

Plasterer and tiler?

 

[timmyjane]

Hi Ray

He is very practical and desperate to get out of the office environment and was thinking more along the lines of one years full time intensive training (which we could afford to do as insurance for redundancy should kick in) and this is possibly the only time in his life he will have such an opportunity to retrain, otherwise its back to stuffy office. Followed by a couple of years of on the job training. With a long view to doing contract work self employed afterwards (as he has the business, marketing and website specialist knowledge to hopefully drive people his way until recommends came in). It seems the work is out there from what you are saying if you are half decent.

Firstly what top notch examinations/courses would you recommend that employers might want.
Secondly - if really dedicated and quick thinker/learner would 3 years be enough time to afford a decent living.
Thirdly - Would age be a real block against outfits taking him on for a couple of years as apprentice/plumbers mate after completion of examinations.

Looked at Electrical work but general stuff on web suggests its better to train as plumber/gas engineer than electrician for numerous reasons.

Still a no go?

 

[timmyjane]

Plasterer and tiler?

Plasterer, Tiler, Bricklayer all been suggested - what daily rate for this, anyone know.

 

[rpm]

Plasterer, Tiler, Bricklayer all been suggested - what daily rate for this, anyone know.

Nobody said tiler that I can see , a good plasterer and kitchen, bathroom wall & floor tiler can earn good money.

 

[Chalked]

Hi Guys

I originally posted asking about what boiler system to put in for a 4/5 bed home wishing to achieve 3 showers running concurrently without loss of pressure nor hot water. Looked into all sorts and got plenty of advice, one option I had found was a semi commercial combi with storage tank (was the bees knees), and am sure this would have done the job, however turned out to be mega bucks.

I was asked to post what option I went for and can thoroughly recommend: -

Worcester Greenstar system boiler with megaflow cylinder, also upgraded to 22/25 mm water supply to provide the flow rate needed. This all works beautifully, no loss of pressure, in fact the force that comes out of our old bath/shower unit is so high I really need to replace it with a fixed head so it does not thrash about. Plenty of hot water plenty of pressure and a reasonable price. Its all in the loft so no loss of space. In fact removal of the old gravity fed system has given me loads more space in the ensuite and loft.

On another matter, hubby just been made redundant and is thinking about retraining, hes 42, previously in Marketing but has great practical and mathematical skills. What could he earn as a plumber/heating engineer and are there any real gaps in the market if he wanted to specialise in a particular area?

How long was he In the marketing job? Did he progress through the years, learning parts of the job. Then getting better paid for more knowledge/ experience.
It's basically the same with plumbing except dirtier and colder!
forget courses. Too much money and no guarantee of work.
forget shadowing someone . Your not wanted, ad as soon as you think you know enough, you will be off and robbing their jobs.
the only people I know that have transitioned well are very good diy'ers that have over the years done their own bathroom, etc.
also you need an interest, not just a means to earn.

my wife is in charge of a marketing department. She earns more than me for 20% less hours. And she gets a great pension and good holidays.

all the best in your quest.

 

[SimonG]

All have to be trained, gain experience and find a market. Even after all that you need to grow a customer base.

What you paying the bills in the meantime with. Plenty of people willing to work for nothing!

Have a search through the forum, hundreds of threads on the same topic.

 

[kay-jay]

He could attain every qualification going but the sad truth is that no one will employ him until he has at least 5 years experience.
The only realistic future for your husband will be as a self employed plumber. And even then there is no way he will be capable of doing the kind of installation you had to wait for.
Realistically he will be doing bathrooms, plumbing maintenance and standard boiler swaps.

Is this enough to earn a living wage? Sure but its not nailed on certainty.
Look in the paper or the yellow pages and see just how many competitors there are in your area that are already well established.