Cert/level 2 C & G exams. Help!!??

[andyplumber2009]

No, exams are not open book
Note: JTL and other training providers write their training course BASED ON C&G NVQ level books, i.e. level 2 or 3 appropriately.
The mock tests they give are then based on their text (Yeah !!)
The actual exams are based on the C&G books, NOT their text......
So ..... you use their training providers books for the assessments and mocks BUT revise from the C&G books. They cost about 20 quid or so but will get you through much more easily
Andy

 

[chris watkins]

No, exams are not open book
Note: JTL and other training providers write their training course BASED ON C&G NVQ level books, i.e. level 2 or 3 appropriately.
The mock tests they give are then based on their text (Yeah !!)
The actual exams are based on the C&G books, NOT their text......
So ..... you use their training providers books for the assessments and mocks BUT revise from the C&G books. They cost about 20 quid or so but will get you through much more easily
Andy

Not true I am afraid Andy
JTL books were written long before C&G, JTL L2 was on 3rd Edition & L3 was 2nd before they joined the party.

"The actual exams are based on the C&G books", NO they are supposed to ask questions against a set of standards that allow others to also write a Plumbing L2 or 3 qualification.

The truth is simple C&G can't write Plumbing & Heating Questions that are correct & fair, trust me I spent years proof reading & correcting their exams questions as a teacher, while I watched my students struggling to answer the most ridicules question.

 

[Kay101]

JTL wrote books around 10 years ago.
C&G wrote them against the quals around 4 years ago.
Questions are online, how can a tutor read them when they are independently invigilated and correct them under exam conditions when it's marked online? I may have misunderstood, apologies if I have but I'm struggling to understand how anyone could 'proof read', unless they work as a moderator?

 

[chris watkins]

It started back when they were paper based questions & continued into the system planing L3, then online. I didn't get paid as a moderator just spent hours & hours sorting out there dross.

I even told them what the answers should be in some cases not just that the answers/questions were wrong, only to find that the next set of papers to come on were still incorrect & not once but twice.

You do what you have to do Kay when faced with young apprentices working hard, that know their stuff but struggle to pass modular exams cos the awarding body can't test their knowledge.

Perhaps the question should be how could an awarding body introduce an online system & insist that they are independently invigilated, in most cases by persons with no Plumbing knowledge, when it's clear that they contain very poor questions &/or wrong answers which in the normal course of things no one but them would know about, just students coming out of exams to be told you have failed me old mate!!
I am glad I am not involved any more.

Just to make it clear I am totally in favour of on-line tests with invigilation just need to know it is a fair system for those sitting the exams, never mind those trying to teach them plumbing.

 

[Kay101]

The units have been online since the introduction of the new qual and units so likely to be completely new questions. With it being online the questions can be monitored so if one is answered incorrectly a high percentage of the time it can be reviewed, online systems can improve the process and therefore accuracy of the outcome.
If a learner challenges a question the challenge can be sent to the awarding body for review, no learner should have an inaccurate result due to a poor question, so official challenge can ensure the debated question is checked and the learner credited with the mark if appropriate.
Multiple choice questions are difficult if written correctly in my experience, if three incorrect answers are plausible as they should be, it could be a learner challenges a question as answers appear similar, but if they knew the answer they would know it.
Important thing is the assessment must be suitable and appropriate, if this isn't the case I would encourage a challenge, but I suspect any initial issues have long since been ironed out.
As with most things a sense of perception and balance is key, nothing is perfect but if we all contribute positively to the sector and skills we can all influence a quality product.
The new quals will change this again

 

[chris watkins]

The units have been online since the introduction of the new qual and units so likely to be completely new questions. With it being online the questions can be monitored so if one is answered incorrectly a high percentage of the time it can be reviewed, online systems can improve the process and therefore accuracy of the outcome.
If a learner challenges a question the challenge can be sent to the awarding body for review, no learner should have an inaccurate result due to a poor question, so official challenge can ensure the debated question is checked and the learner credited with the mark if appropriate.
Multiple choice questions are difficult if written correctly in my experience, if three incorrect answers are plausible as they should be, it could be a learner challenges a question as answers appear similar, but if they knew the answer they would know it.
Important thing is the assessment must be suitable and appropriate, if this isn't the case I would encourage a challenge, but I suspect any initial issues have long since been ironed out.
As with most things a sense of perception and balance is key, nothing is perfect but if we all contribute positively to the sector and skills we can all influence a quality product.
The new quals will change this again

Spoken like a true FE teacher, how many challenges were made at your college last year then Kay or perhaps the question should be how many were successful & if any how long did the Guilds take ?

BTW are they still asking that cold water question on the Schmutzdecke layer? You know that bit of info of water filtration that is on every plumber lips (well not literally cos it wouldn't very nice :46 Who in there right mind would ever think of asking a trainee a question on that ?????

 

[Kay101]

That wasn't a great question I agree, but it was removed years ago and was only live a short time, shows that challenges work and led to improvement. This shouldn't reflect on the whole.

You do know who wrote the content don't you?

 

[chris watkins]

Well I'll take a punt on you ?

You & C&G are missing the point with a system that relies on challenges (& I noticed you didn't answer the question of how many) the damage is already done the poor buggers who were presented with that one in a formal test have perhaps wasted time trying to figure it out or are so disconcerted that it has an effect on the rest of the test or least ways if it was a question that they could have answered then that could have been the difference between a pass & a fail mark.

Cold comfort to maybe wait a year or so until someone has a look & says, oh yes that wasn't "a great question" we better remove it.

It wouldn't happen in the really business world, I can tell you that. C&G charge for each on-line test that means it is a product which should be fit for purpose & IMHO it is far from that.

I say a bit of competition from another awarding body is not such a bad thing, it may even lead to something called "customer service" two words not recognised in the hallowed halls of Giltspur Street.

 

[Kay101]

Hi Chris,

I love your enthusiasm for education and getting things right, any industry benefits from people who are passionate about getting things right and I fully support that.

I've said before I don't work for a college, but would make no difference if I did, I do have a keen interest in education and my trade of almost 30 years though.

I was just interested in your point over 'proof reading' questions when they have been online for around 10 years? The latest quals came out around 4 years ago and I thought the comments may be outdated.

How can a tutor see all the questions when they are independently invigilated to 'proof read' them?
How can we question the time to investigate if we haven't done it recently?
How can we use a single question (which wasn't incorrect and met the content written by another body) as a justification for saying the majority are poor?

Again apologies if I have misunderstood, just trying to understand how current this feedback is.

 

[Deleted member 25704]

Multiple choice tests are highly problematic.

Firstly, over 70% of multiple choice questions are likely to test memory e.g. of facts such as the density of water at 4 degrees centigrade. As soon as you start to construct questions that measure understanding and comprehension, analytical skills, evaluation or problem solving, the questions become so complex they cannot be understood by the student. Hence, teachers have to then train students to understand the questions before they get to the test which is known as 'teaching to test'.

I could go on about the problems with multiple choice but it is well documented in the research literature (which City and Guilds and other 'educational' charities choose to ignore).

The key problem is the way knowledge tests have become meaningless because of their separation from practice. The original doctrine for NVQs states that knowledge tests must only be sat directly in relation to practice i.e. immediately before or after practical activity. However, this important requirement for testing has been subverted and we now have students who claim to have knowledge and understanding of heating sytems, months before they have done anything in the practical.

If you want to know whether someone knows or understands you can question them in relation to practice as they are doing it, you can also infer knowledge and understanding from competent performance in the real work context.

Nevertheless, we have arrived at where we are now because of combination of factors:

1. Awarding bodies, sector skills councils and training providers have taken £millions of public money and invested £0 in research.
2. Awarding bodies and their qualification offerings have not been inspected by experts in qualifications in the past - this is now changing and regulated Trailblazer quals will have to be inspected by ofqual experts in that field!
3. Awarding bodies on behalf of employer groups and powerful stakeholders set the quals to be delivered under the belief of 'reliability' and 'standardisation'. My concern is that in improving the reliability of a qualification (reliability concerns being able to repeat the test in other centres and get roughly the same score). However, by improving reliability the validity is compromised (validity is concerned with testing what the test purports to test e.g. competence) e.g. simulated assessments cannot capture or replicate the work place for learning plumbing. The current tests and the Trailblazer will be unfit for purpose because they are carried out in simulated environments - this is ok for some engineering occupations such as lathe workers where knowledge transfer is easy, but for plumbing, knowledge transfer is complex.
4. Managers of colleges and in particular teachers, have been too accepting of really crap qualifications and have not been empowered to change the state of things.