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Discuss Cert/level 2 C & G exams. Help!!?? in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

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The units have been online since the introduction of the new qual and units so likely to be completely new questions. With it being online the questions can be monitored so if one is answered incorrectly a high percentage of the time it can be reviewed, online systems can improve the process and therefore accuracy of the outcome.
If a learner challenges a question the challenge can be sent to the awarding body for review, no learner should have an inaccurate result due to a poor question, so official challenge can ensure the debated question is checked and the learner credited with the mark if appropriate.
Multiple choice questions are difficult if written correctly in my experience, if three incorrect answers are plausible as they should be, it could be a learner challenges a question as answers appear similar, but if they knew the answer they would know it.
Important thing is the assessment must be suitable and appropriate, if this isn't the case I would encourage a challenge, but I suspect any initial issues have long since been ironed out.
As with most things a sense of perception and balance is key, nothing is perfect but if we all contribute positively to the sector and skills we can all influence a quality product.
The new quals will change this again

Spoken like a true FE teacher, how many challenges were made at your college last year then Kay or perhaps the question should be how many were successful & if any how long did the Guilds take ?

BTW are they still asking that cold water question on the Schmutzdecke layer? You know that bit of info of water filtration that is on every plumber lips (well not literally cos it wouldn't very nice :46:) Who in there right mind would ever think of asking a trainee a question on that ?????
 
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That wasn't a great question I agree, but it was removed years ago and was only live a short time, shows that challenges work and led to improvement. This shouldn't reflect on the whole.

You do know who wrote the content don't you?
 
Well I'll take a punt on you ?

You & C&G are missing the point with a system that relies on challenges (& I noticed you didn't answer the question of how many) the damage is already done the poor buggers who were presented with that one in a formal test have perhaps wasted time trying to figure it out or are so disconcerted that it has an effect on the rest of the test or least ways if it was a question that they could have answered then that could have been the difference between a pass & a fail mark.

Cold comfort to maybe wait a year or so until someone has a look & says, oh yes that wasn't "a great question" we better remove it.

It wouldn't happen in the really business world, I can tell you that. C&G charge for each on-line test that means it is a product which should be fit for purpose & IMHO it is far from that.

I say a bit of competition from another awarding body is not such a bad thing, it may even lead to something called "customer service" two words not recognised in the hallowed halls of Giltspur Street.
 
Hi Chris,

I love your enthusiasm for education and getting things right, any industry benefits from people who are passionate about getting things right and I fully support that.

I've said before I don't work for a college, but would make no difference if I did, I do have a keen interest in education and my trade of almost 30 years though.

I was just interested in your point over 'proof reading' questions when they have been online for around 10 years? The latest quals came out around 4 years ago and I thought the comments may be outdated.

How can a tutor see all the questions when they are independently invigilated to 'proof read' them?
How can we question the time to investigate if we haven't done it recently?
How can we use a single question (which wasn't incorrect and met the content written by another body) as a justification for saying the majority are poor?

Again apologies if I have misunderstood, just trying to understand how current this feedback is.
 
Multiple choice tests are highly problematic.

Firstly, over 70% of multiple choice questions are likely to test memory e.g. of facts such as the density of water at 4 degrees centigrade. As soon as you start to construct questions that measure understanding and comprehension, analytical skills, evaluation or problem solving, the questions become so complex they cannot be understood by the student. Hence, teachers have to then train students to understand the questions before they get to the test which is known as 'teaching to test'.

I could go on about the problems with multiple choice but it is well documented in the research literature (which City and Guilds and other 'educational' charities choose to ignore).

The key problem is the way knowledge tests have become meaningless because of their separation from practice. The original doctrine for NVQs states that knowledge tests must only be sat directly in relation to practice i.e. immediately before or after practical activity. However, this important requirement for testing has been subverted and we now have students who claim to have knowledge and understanding of heating sytems, months before they have done anything in the practical.

If you want to know whether someone knows or understands you can question them in relation to practice as they are doing it, you can also infer knowledge and understanding from competent performance in the real work context.

Nevertheless, we have arrived at where we are now because of combination of factors:

1. Awarding bodies, sector skills councils and training providers have taken ÂŁmillions of public money and invested ÂŁ0 in research.
2. Awarding bodies and their qualification offerings have not been inspected by experts in qualifications in the past - this is now changing and regulated Trailblazer quals will have to be inspected by ofqual experts in that field!
3. Awarding bodies on behalf of employer groups and powerful stakeholders set the quals to be delivered under the belief of 'reliability' and 'standardisation'. My concern is that in improving the reliability of a qualification (reliability concerns being able to repeat the test in other centres and get roughly the same score). However, by improving reliability the validity is compromised (validity is concerned with testing what the test purports to test e.g. competence) e.g. simulated assessments cannot capture or replicate the work place for learning plumbing. The current tests and the Trailblazer will be unfit for purpose because they are carried out in simulated environments - this is ok for some engineering occupations such as lathe workers where knowledge transfer is easy, but for plumbing, knowledge transfer is complex.
4. Managers of colleges and in particular teachers, have been too accepting of really crap qualifications and have not been empowered to change the state of things.
 
Hi Chris,

How can we question the time to investigate if we haven't done it recently?

How can we use a single question (which wasn't incorrect and met the content written by another body) as a justification for saying the majority are poor?

Again apologies if I have misunderstood, just trying to understand how current this feedback is.

So you are not in a college then Kay but clearly have access into the Guilds ?

Come on then provide the information requested in post 36 i.e.
"How many challenges were made last year or perhaps the question should be how many were successful & if any how long did the Guilds take ?" show an ex customer that you can do "customer service" by answering.

It most certainly was not just the odd one or two wrong questions, do you really think I would be going on like this if it was so, "wake up & smell the coffee" They are your questions, take ownership, you put them up for students to answer don't you?

quid pro quo if you want my further feedback.
 
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We had so many questions with wrong answers listed on the online exams at college when I was there 2/3 years ago and the 5years before that.
Schmutzdecke was still in there then as well.

Worst of all was having multiple choice question, four possible anwsers and two of them were the same?? Even if you got it right there was still a 50% chance you'd be wrong
 
I don't have the answers your looking for. I just struggle to understand how someone knows a question is definitely wrong unless it's been checked and if they are adamant it's wrong why they would accept it rather than report it and try to get it sorted for their students?
 
It's easy to know a question is wrong when sometimes the answers barely relate to the question being asked, we had an electrical tutor sit one of our plumbing exams - electrical one obv, and he was shocked at how awkwardly the questions had been worded, I think he actually said that the level 3 electrical students wouldn't get asked those sort of questions and again some questions using things like double negatives to try and catch people out. Can't quote any examples of the top of my head as it has been a good 2/3 years since I sat them.
 
I don't have the answers your looking for. I just struggle to understand how someone knows a question is definitely wrong unless it's been checked and if they are adamant it's wrong why they would accept it rather than report it and try to get it sorted for their students?

It started back when they were paper based questions & continued into the system planing L3, then online.
I even told them what the answers should be in some cases not just that the answers/questions were wrong, only to find that the next set of papers to come on were still incorrect & not once but twice.

You no listen (post 34), which is one of the reasons I left teaching, anyway I have a proper job now to do so I will take my leave. :seeya:
 
It's easy to know a question is wrong when sometimes the answers barely relate to the question being asked, we had an electrical tutor sit one of our plumbing exams - electrical one obv, and he was shocked at how awkwardly the questions had been worded, I think he actually said that the level 3 electrical students wouldn't get asked those sort of questions and again some questions using things like double negatives to try and catch people out. Can't quote any examples of the top of my head as it has been a good 2/3 years since I sat them.

Yes the electrical unit is very large, you know who sets the content don't you? It's the sector skills councils, often people think it's the awarding body's
 
You no listen (post 34), which is one of the reasons I left teaching, anyway I have a proper job now to do so I will take my leave. :seeya:



Fair enough, this is design I presume, should this be public or is this an old assessment that's been updated?
It may look like L4 but content set by ssc
Good luck with your proper job :) I have one too lol
 
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