Bathroom renovation with a fortic cylinder

[TomLane]

I have been asked by a customer to renovate their bathroom for them.

It's in a flat that they currently live in but will be looking to rent it out in the near future.

They have asked to keep the layout of the bathroom the same as it is now, just replacing the old bath,basin & toilet with new. They also want a shower of some sort installed as there currently isn't one.

The main problem with this is that it is not possible to run an electric feed to the bathroom for an electric shower & the hot water is fed from a fortic cylinder that came out of the arc!!

Suggestions (sensible) welcomed as to what the solution for this would be. The cylinder is on a plinth in the airing cupboard next to the bathroom with about 1m at the minute. Would a pump work on the cylinder or would it drain it too quickly? The cold feed to the cylinder is mains & also to the bathroom & rest of the flat.

The bathroom is in a right state at the minute, to be honest I was reluctant to take this job on because the cleanliness of the bathroom made me feel sick but the guy has other properties that he is getting me to look at in the new year with a view to doing some more work in them for him.

 

[secret squirrel]

Well, I'd walk away on this one, not a lot you can do, landlords as a rule don't like spending lots of money.

Unvented cylinder, combi boiler, new cylinder and 50 gallon tank to pump it,

NO you can't have a pump on this system as it is at the moment, you'll drain the cwst way quicker than it'll fill.

Its not a good system and without money being spent it won't be.

Looked at something similar a while ago, landlord did it himself, was a nightmare to sort and I walked away, he didn't want to spend the money.

 

[secret squirrel]

Oh and all the promises you'll be my plumber, I don't have a plumber, do this cheap and you'll get all my work,

worthless statements, don't believe a word of it!

 

[TomLane]

Fair point about the promises, I never expect to be 100% guaranteed to win a job when I've quoted someone for work. But then that's the nature of the beast. I don't price a job to try & undercut everyone else, I price to do the job properly. You win some, you lose some. That's how it goes with all customers, not just landlords. When can we ever guarantee we'll get the job?!

I have done some work already at the flat, only a few general repairs though. He seems quite keen to have the bathroom done especially as when I walked in the I found it hard to hide my disgust at the condition of it & told him so!

He's unlikely to have the fortic updated & I haven't even tried to peruse those avenues with him anyway!

With regards to the pump, I thought as much but my knowledge of them is limited so wanted a second opinion. I have already mentioned to him that it might not be possible to have the shower.

 

[JCplumb]

Agree with the above, this is definitely a walk away job if he isn't going to spend enough money to do it right. I don't know if the regs allow it but I know I wouldn't put a pump on a fortic, you'll be getting called out to black water every time they take a shower that lasts more than 5 minutes.
Advise him to get an electric feed in there, it's more than he wants to spend but it's the least expensive way to do it right in my opinion. New electric feed and a Triton enrich for about £250 and you'd make a decent enough butty off that while keeping him sweet for further work.

 

[TomLane]

The shower is not essential. He only enquired about it as the rest of the bathroom was being modernised.

Without the shower install there's still enough work renovating the rest of the bathroom.

I'm not entirely sure that it would be possible to run an electric feed for a shower from the current consumer unit which is located outside of the flat near the front door. It's an old unit & in my opinion would need updating if a shower were to be fitted. I'm unsure of who's responsibility it would be to do this (building owner or landlord)

We can't walk away from all jobs that we seem a little uncertain of surely?!? Isn't it about managing the situation & the customers expectations?!

 

[JCplumb]

We can't walk away from all jobs that we seem a little uncertain of surely?!? Isn't it about managing the situation & the customers expectations?!

You're right there, but this isn't a case of being a little uncertain, this can't be done the way he wants. Your reputation is at stake if you do what he wants because in all probability it will not work.
If you rephrase it to 'do you walk away from jobs that may harm your reputation' then - yes 100% of the time you walk away.

 

[mountainman]

It's also about providing the best solution within budget.
And most importantly you getting paid without grief and numerous callbacks.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

mains cold and single impeller booster pump on the hot for shower only ! but they must not shower for more long time

 

[JCplumb]

I was thinking of primatic cylinders when I first answered, this isn't a primatic is it? (had a few festive baileys this evening) :54:

 

[AWheating]

i would advise the shower would be costly and cheapest option is an electric which he will need a quote off a sparks for and it will be an extra £*** for the plumbing. Then get the bathroom done and paid.

 

[secret squirrel]

The landlord is not too worried about a shower yet, that is until it is modernised and all the tennants want a shower and will only rent it for 6 months because they want a shower.

I agree with you about managing expectations and not walking away from jobs, IMO I walk away from a job when all I am going to get is,

"I spent all this money on the bathroom and it takes for ever to fill the bath"

"I told you this would be the case"

"I didn't realise it was going to be THIS bad, you have to do something, I am loosing tennants"

"But as I explained at the time, this would be the case and you said leave it as it is"

Blah blah blah,

For me I haven't got the patience to deal with this.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

The landlord is not too worried about a shower yet, that is until it is modernised and all the tennants want a shower and will only rent it for 6 months because they want a shower.

I agree with you about managing expectations and not walking away from jobs, IMO I walk away from a job when all I am going to get is,

"I spent all this money on the bathroom and it takes for ever to fill the bath"

"I told you this would be the case"

"I didn't realise it was going to be THIS bad, you have to do something, I am loosing tennants"

"But as I explained at the time, this would be the case and you said leave it as it is"

Blah blah blah,

For me I haven't got the patience to deal with this.

if you have enough work the explain what is the best and how much it will cost and leave it with the customer to make decision

 

[SimonG]

Unvented cylinder if you have the flow and pressure.

 

[secret squirrel]

if you have enough work the explain what is the best and how much it will cost and leave it with the customer to make decision

I do agree with you, for me though whether I have enough work or not, its customers who make me want to work for them, even if it is a rubbish job.

For example:

I explain to the customer the options and he says I'll go for option A, it is what I can afford.

This is the customer I want.

If I explain the options and the costing and the customer says, yeah, but I'll go my way instead.

I'd rather not have the job, even if I need the work, something else will come along and the stress is a lot less, IF you have an understanding customer.

This job is always difficult even if its an easy job, we very rarely have an easy job that goes to plan, if you throw in a difficult customer it can make life unbearable.

Then you have the call backs and the 'I told you this would happen' blah blah.

Personally and I stress personally, I'd rather not have the job.

How many times have you/me/us been called to a bathroom or a flat that has had a new bathroom on a fortic cylinder and the bath has been done on flexis making the flow worse?

I use this as an example because it is relevant in this case.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

i dont know as i dont do many bathrooms SS but I understand what you are saying !
I do work as a sub since july and fit boilers for HA
last job i had this year was a 35kw combi to go on plasterboard wall with 8m of flue+plum+boiler new location+ had to go through 2 internal walls +tenant had already told office that she will sue me and the company if anything she said ANYTHING go wrong

so you get the picture what i am up against on my last job + job was in east london and I live in west london its only 30miles but could take about to get home

job was a night mare and i did not want to do it but if I did not put my head down and get on with it , I could easily potentially end up with no work in the near future

 

[TomLane]

Thanks for all the advice as usual. Much appreciated.

The customer only asked for the shower as a possibility, it is not the be all and end all of the job. If I explain to him simply that it can't be done without him having a spark update the consumer unit & run an electric feed to the bathroom he will accept my explanation. I have been honest with him from the start & haven't promised that I will be able to install the shower.

He has listened to my advice thus far & heeded it. As previously, if I tell him the situation with the shower he can make his own decision & I will install the rest of the bathroom as quoted.

Squirrell, I appreciate what you are saying about the type of customers we prefer to work for. In all honestly I feel that taking the shower out of this situation (as though it was never enquired about by the customer in the first instance) there would be no issue with a straight swap of appliances & pipework?!

 

[TomLane]

Apologies, have re-read my first post & see that I wrote the customer "wants a shower installed", I should have said they "enquired if it would be possible to install a shower".

This obviously changes the outlook on the whole post and therefore alters the impression of the customer to you all reading the post!