at risk

[andyg0507]

went to a job the other day with the bloke i work with and we had to at risk the boiler because the flue was incorrectly supported, we turned the boiler off at the gas cock and when we did, the customer said he wasnt happy with what wed done because last time the flue was 'at risked' the engineer had just turned the boiler off at the power( basically this idiot had turned the boiler back on once the engineer had gone and its been like it ever since.)

but whos right or wrong, power, gas cock or something else

 

[Mbear]

It's up to the punter mate.

If they don't want you to turn it off then just switch the power off.
If they want it off then turn the gas off.

Just make sure you document what you did&why

 

[andyg0507]

that goes without saying mbear, thanks for clearing that up tho.

 

[Bernie2]

I have found out the hard way.

That its up to the punter, the Gas Regulations apply to everybody not just the gas fitter.

So if its a dangerous situation you have to ask permission from the responsible person first before you cap it off.

You can however contact the gas supplier and tell them you think there is a dangerous appliance in the house. They can then refuse to supply gas to the premises.

As said though put it in writing.

 

[newbie1]

simple
with permission cap off(totally pointless turning off power as punter will turn it back on
issue paperwork
without permission call transco and issue paperwork
job done

 

[kirkgas]

simple
with permission cap off(totally pointless turning off power as punter will turn it back on
issue paperwork
without permission call transco and issue paperwork
job done

even simpler than this is to comply with the Gas Regs which say AR does not need to be capped, simply shut off, if the customers dont take my technical safety based advise to protect them, their family their neighbours and their property i couldn't care less as long as they are of sound mind and understand what i'm saying to them, the regs are clear if ID you ask for permission to cap, if refused you contact the supplier, if AR you only need to turn it off, i suppose if they refuse to allow you to switch off you need to contact the supplier to advise but in all the years i have been doing gas i have never been refused permission to turn off AR, in fact the technique is to have it turned off before you advise the punter it is AR so that even if they get a bit shirty and refuse the warning notice i know it was off when i left it and have advised them of this, and push the warning notice through the door advising them of everything, i then happily move on to the next job knowing i am 100% correct on my procedure

 

[Bernie2]

I agree Kirkgas!

I worked for a company doing gas servicing for large housing associations. I have forgotten how many services we did it was that many.

And yes I have turned off and capped the gas without asking to be told I was in the wrong. But as you say, mostly you get no complaints at all.

 

[migoplumber]

this sounds like a thread from a couple of weeks back, AR means turning off with clients permission. The client has allready given me permission to work on the gas supply so if i feel an appliance is AR I disconnect and cap, then ask client to sign paperwork. if he's not happy - tough, he is safe. my view only - not word perfect to regs and i know others here disagree.

 

[Mbear]

this sounds like a thread from a couple of weeks back, AR means turning off with clients permission. The client has allready given me permission to work on the gas supply so if i feel an appliance is AR I disconnect and cap, then ask client to sign paperwork. if he's not happy - tough, he is safe. my view only - not word perfect to regs and i know others here disagree.

U are wrong to cut&cap with AR's, gas regs state turn off with custs permission. If they refuse, you do not turn it off at all, you merely state on your paperwork it's AR&cust refuse to have it turned off, also state on the paperwork if the cust declines to sign it. Covers u from all angles migo.

Not bein cheeky mate but you've kinda made up ur own interpretation of the unsafe sits rules when it comes to AR. If the appliance is ID then the route u describe is correct, if the cust refuses to let u cap on an ID then obviously u have a resposibility to inform transco so they can isolate the custs gas from the street if the cust refuses them(transco) permission also

 

[newbie1]

i think i would go with migo as i know the regs but i personally wouldnt sleep right if i think something is at risk and just turn it off knowing full well 90 per cent of idiots will turn it back on as i walk out the door
i would rather sleep right than quible
i cant turn round and say i know their dead but i did warn them they might die

 

[Bernie2]

Regarding rules, I once asked a CORGI inspector about ventilation in a room with a gas fire.

I was saying how to get proper ventilation they have to open a window or an outside door. My point was that they are hardly likely to do this in the Winter and so gas fire permanent ventilation should be part of the Gas regs, taking into account room size.

He said CORGI had been after that for years, but they met resistance off builders who did not want the added expense of permanent vents.

So I said "That makes no sense!" to which he replied "People are supposed to keep a window open when the gas fire is on!" But I said, I know that I am registered and its part of my job to know that, however "How do they know that!" have they got a copy of the BS or Gas Regs on ventilation?

Have they really read the manufacturers instructions?

He said "The Gas Regs apply to gas users as much as they do the fitter!"

Yet nobody seems to tell the customer about the Gas Regs or what information they are supposed to know.

Its the usual thing isn't it?

Gas fire burning yellow! What is wrong with that?

How am I supposed to know its burning wrong, nobody told me, how to recognise a faulty flame envelop from a mail envelope!

 

[migoplumber]

thanks newbie - thats exactly it.
mbear i dont believe I am wrong, my experience shows me the client just turns the thing on afterwards - i am not happy with that, my concern is safety of the stupid ones - and mainly me not arriving in court having to prove i did things correctly, this way the only reason i will end up in court is if the stupid one takes me there and i reckon ive got a good defense.
as said in previous thread. id prefer to lose the ar category and just have ncs and id, but that would cost money wouldnt it !!

 

[prs1]

The Gas Regs can at times be very hard to interpretate even with all our collective knowledge , just look at some of the debates on here.
But in saying that the biggest majority of gas fitters/engineers have the working knowlege to stay within them even if not word for word.
You cant expect a member of the public to interpretate something that can still be difficult at time to us.
May be its time that a plain english version
1 for gas users and another for any body doing gas fitters/engineers
and while were at it lets have it written by an engineer and not a bl0@dy Lawyer.

 

[kirkgas]

i think i would go with migo as i know the regs but i personally wouldnt sleep right if i think something is at risk and just turn it off knowing full well 90 per cent of idiots will turn it back on as i walk out the door
i would rather sleep right than quible
i cant turn round and say i know their dead but i did warn them they might die

i appreciate you make your statement with the best interests of all the dafties you come up against, but you dont have the right to supercede the regs and it is only a matter of time before one of these no win no fee scumbags suggests a punter sues a gas engineer for something like this

 

[oldplumber]

its easy, if its ar and you know they are going to turn the apliance back on, suddenly i can smell gas or my smoke match proves the flues spilling, then its id and off, no questions asked..(thats what my telephone query to the gas safe tech concluded, informally)

 

[prs1]

and thats just being down right dishonest albeiit with best intention!
All very well till they ring GSR and inspection puts your competance in the dock!
Me personally speaking and not calling anyone but i could not do that

 

[migoplumber]

old plumber has found the perfect "reason" never realised it before.
no win no fee lawyers do get paid - just like every other leeching lawyer, only they get to pick and choose their cases - if they know your not gonna win they wont accept you. I would happily go to court against any one of them.
lets face it though its not likely to happen, we are supposed to be trusted gas engineers operating within the regs to provide customer safety. if you know your customer is going to turn on the appliance youve just turned off - because you believe it is unsafe, the second you walk out the door, then you are not doing your job correctly and shouldnt be sleeping at night knowing you have a dozen AR appliances being blissfully used by their stupid owners - but what the hey, your paperwork is signed off and has transferred the responsibility to the stupid one, so everything is ok.
nah i prefer my method.

 

[Mbear]

One thing to bear in mind for the 'cap happy' boys

• over classifying is as bad as underclassifyig and shows incompetence in eyes of the powers that be.

AR means turn off with permission
I'D means cap with permission

 

[migoplumber]

can you back that claim up mbear and make me eat my hat ?
i will willingly eat it, and apologise, but will also carry on!

 

[Mbear]

can you back that claim up mbear and make me eat my hat ?
i will willingly eat it, and apologise, but will also carry on!

u know I'm technically correct on this bud

if u cap as standard on AR's then you are cap happy.

Sorry. No offence intended migo

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

I capped a gas fire once, and nearly lost my company its whole contract and me my job no doubt.

The thing is, as has been said I had no right to cap it off without permission, I was acting like a vigilante outside the law, even though I thought it wrong not to cap it.

The answer perhaps is to educate the gas user in gas safety and make them realise how dangerous it is.

Basically that is what GaSafe is supposed to do.

Its a bit pointless acting like a policeman without the authority to do so, toward people who have no idea about gas safety, yet they are expected to follow Safety Regs nobody has told them about.

 

[newbie1]

actually you will allways get supported for over classifying a situ rather than under classifying
i stand by my orig reasoning if i think for one moment there is a risk to life i will cap off or call transco if i dont then i wont simple as that no way can i walk away from something with the (i filled out the paperwork so they cant blame me if something goes wrong attitude)i need to sleep sound at night

 

[Bernie2]

Thing is Newbie1, I would agree with you. Unfortunately some of the clients may not.

 

[mikegas]

actually you will allways get supported for over classifying a situ rather than under classifying
i stand by my orig reasoning if i think for one moment there is a risk to life i will cap off or call transco if i dont then i wont simple as that no way can i walk away from something with the (i filled out the paperwork so they cant blame me if something goes wrong attitude)i need to sleep sound at night

Well there should be no immediate risk to life otherwise your classification would be id anyway

 

[Mbear]

actually you will allways get supported for over classifying a situ rather than under classifying
i stand by my orig reasoning if i think for one moment there is a risk to life i will cap off or call transco if i dont then i wont simple as that no way can i walk away from something with the (i filled out the paperwork so they cant blame me if something goes wrong attitude)i need to sleep sound at night

so if you cut&cap a chb that only really falls into ncs catagery you will get supported? of course you wont, why? because you've overclassified when there is no need.

I stand by what I said earlier in this thread

under and overclassification shows incompetence and a lack of understanding of the unsafe situation guidelines and procedures.

 

[newbie1]

at risk definition is if used it could present a risk
id definition is if used it would present a risk
so its not incompetence and actually a bit insulting to use that expression
as i stated i would rather over clasify and err on side of caution but thanks for the insult

 

[migoplumber]

dont think we are all ever gonna agree on this one!
suppose at the end of the day, you have to make your own decision on the circumstances, including how it will affect your business afterwards as bernie pointed out.

 

[newbie1]

agreed and i would rather sleep well than worry about a lost customer

 

[Mbear]

at risk definition is if used it could present a risk
AR to me means there is potential for it to be Id

id definition is if used it would present a risk
ID to me means say a fire is spilling right now

so its not incompetence and actually a bit insulting to use that expression
as i stated i would rather over clasify and err on side of caution but thanks for the insult

it's not an insult newbie, I'm merely using the terminology that we use in the gas industry. I'm not tryin to insult anybody, honest mate