Air Source Heat Pumps

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mark6266

Hi chaps and chapess's
Has anyone had any experience in thease fellas ?? (new fangled thingy)
Manufactures claim for every 1kw of electrical energy the pump uses it produces 3 kw of heat energy , flow temp goes to a max of 50 deg c, and rads there for have to be oversized ect .
welcome all feed back
kind regards mark.
oh who am I ?
My name is mark and I am a time served ex gas now oil heating engineer / plumber .
Very busy at the moment (opening a shop ect) so very little time to offer advice , thinking about geting the air source heat pump to heat the shop .
 
1kw to 3kw is roughly correct. speak to flamco, they have an good unit coming on the market soon.

shaun
 
assuming your asking about a air to water heat pump. Ivfitted a worcester bosch unit. The technology is old but still impressive. Definately reduces heating bills but the worces come in at just under 4000. They say rads have to be oversized 30%

works great with underfloor heating
 
thanks for the replies , its nice to know that there are other forward thinking plumbers out there. Have any of you had any dealings with the trianco unit ?? and if so are there any unusual installation requirements etc.
 
hi mark6266
I have installed a number of air source heat pumps in new builds, and instead of normal radiators I have been using smiths ecovectors, because they they give out a better heat output. I have also been installing air source hot water cylinders.
regards
Mike
 
I have been toying with putting an air to air heatpump in a mates conservatory , but i am not sure how the running costs would compair to a rad piped off exsisting system , anyone have laymans idea of running costs ? cheers
 
hi mike ,
Thanks for the reply,
How did the installations go , how much apx do your customers save on fuel bills , and what would be a typical cost price for say a uvhwc with heat pump.
In your experience what would you think would be a fair price to charge a customer for a ) airsource heat pump b) airsource heat pump uvhwc. Do you think the day will come when thease units will be able to heat a whole house because i have seen big 12kw units on the market . going back to the ashp uvhwc do you need a backup heat source to bring to stored hot water to 60 c . Sorry questions questions can you guess I am very interested in thease units .
Thanks in advance
Mark
And thankyou to all the other guys .
 
Hmm

There is a lot of talk about Heat Pumps, but there are also many questions. They do use electricity and it may be cheaper to use gas. They also loose efficiency the colder the weather. They also only heat water up to about 50+C you need a supplementary heater to take the temp above 60C to prevent Legionella.

You have to plough through all the info and specs to decide if they are really going to be worth it or not.

And I suppose if your going in for one for green reasons, you have to consider how much pollution the power station puts out to make the electricity to run the heat pump. Be ace if you had a wind turbine for the electricity though or stuck a voltaic panel on the roof to run it.
 
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hi Bernie, thanks for the reply , I hear what you are saying about the fact they still need electrical energy to run but surely its better to use 1kW of electrical energy rather than 3 kW min on a immersion heater ?? and yes there are questions with the units in much the same way as there were questions regarding solar when it first came out , In fact did you know you can now buy a uvhwc/ashp as a single unit and customers are reporting the units are heating the water to 55 C they can also supply a solar panel to run the thing . your temp query "They also loose efficiency the colder the weather" this is a relative statement and it worth bearing in mind ashp's only stop working when the temp reaches absolute zero(-760 c apx). secondary heating can be solved quite easily with a pipe stat and a zone valve or immersion heater time switch ( the last 5C needed ). I remember when uvhwc first came out and they were the work of the devil, and then next i remember when solar first came to england and they too were the work of the devil . I see a pattern forming here !! As for being cheaper I for one don't think the numbers would stack up ,is 3kw of gas more expensive than 1kw of electrical energy? and is there such a thing as a 100% efficient gas boiler? and will there ever be? ,oh lets not forget gas will run out in about 20years time and as it becomes more expensive to draw out of the ground who will be left holding the bill??
Kind Regards Mark
 
hi mark6266
the first customer that i installed for are not on mains gas, their choices were oil , LPG, or some form of electric heating, so it was their decision to go with ASHP's, at the time I had never heard of one or seen one.
I find it it difficult to give an average price on installations, because no installation is typical, unless your doing site work.
heat pumps are already doing whole house heating. The first full system i installed had an 8kw ASHP heating the system. then a seperate unvented hot water cylinder with its own ASHP attached to it doing the hot water.
The unvented hot water cylinder does have an Immersion fitted, but it is programmed to come on once a week for a pasturisation cycle, other than that, the immersion isnt used.
I personally feel that ASHP's are the future for people building in areas where there is no mains gas, and i have been considering giving up my Gas Safe registration, to concentrate on installing this type of technology.
Regards
mike
 
Hi Mark,it's quite clear you do not know what you are talking about,,,,,,,Absolute zero is a temperature marked by a 0 entropy configuration. It is the coldest temperature theoretically possible and cannot be reached by artificial or natural means. Temperature is an entropically defined quantity that effectively determines the number of thermodynamically accessible states of a system within an energy range. Absolute zero physically possesses quantum mechanical zero-point energy. Having a limited temperature has several thermodynamic consequences; for example, at absolute zero all molecular motion does not cease but does not have enough energy for transference to other systems, it is therefore correct to say that at 0 kelvin molecular energy is minimal. In addition, any particle with zero energy would violate Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, which states that the location and momentum of a particle cannot be known at the same time. A particle at absolute zero would be at rest, so both its position, and momentum (0), would be known simultaneously.
By international agreement, absolute zero is defined as precisely 0 K on the Kelvin scale, which is a thermodynamic (absolute) temperature scale, and −273.15° on the Celsius scale.[1] Absolute zero is also precisely equivalent to 0 °R on the Rankine scale (same as Kelvin but measured in Fahrenheit intervals), and −459.67° on the Fahrenheit scale. Though it is not theoretically possible to cool any substance to 0 K,[2] scientists have made great advancements in achieving temperatures close to absolute zero, where matter exhibits quantum effects such as superconductivity and superfluidity. For the kinematics of the molecules, on a larger scale, which is easier to understand see kinetic energy.............As for the cost of nat gas per kwh ????????
 
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himac, your quote is very good.
next time could you start the reply along the lines of "hi mark, this is what i think"
as opposed to "you dont know what your talking about"

we want things friendly on here.

he is right about the gas running out !!

ta.
shaun
 
Hi migoplumber ,I will mind my manners , but I have been researching Air Source Heat Pumps for a long time for a new build I am doing and have been talking on various forums and have come across the product this guy is talking about - the same machine and I have seen it and it does not work..........I was not talking about gas running out, I was on about the cost per KWH.
 
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I have little doubt that ASHP's are probably part of the future. It would seem that as fossil fuels run out, more alternative energy sources will be brought into play.

All I was indicating is not that I am against them, but that a lot of factors have to be taken into account if somebody decides to get one installed.

It seems virtually the whole range of current alternative energies are really old technology brought into use and quite a lot about them is already known.

I would suggest looking at US sites or even Australian as well as the UK.

Lets be honest, they should not be exactly hard to fit, just that they require a bit more working out than most regarding efficiencies.
 
yep bernie agree totally,
lots of "new" things coming forward now. obviously not new. the romans were doing solar long before we "invented" it. i think everybodys starting to panic, so a lot of half finished "new stuff" trying to get in on the green band wagon

i wonder what we will be talking about on here in 10 years time ??


h
shaun
 
Hello guys
I truely thankyou for the replys I as a time served gas/oil heating engineer .I
offer my oppions in good faith. I would never insult anyone on a forum , yes you sound quite right Himac my guessamate a 0 kelven was way off ,forgive me it was 25 years ago when i left school but the point I was making is still just as sound despite you text book quote. The point I was making was a temp drop of 40 c is a) not likly b) nor deverstating to a ashp , and for all your twaddle it still seems to be the case .
As for me Dave no I am just a simple heating engineer looking further my understanding in this field .If I seem a little thick to you all I wont botter ot offer any more input
kind regards Mark
 
Hi Mark.

Seems some reports are saying, that a fall off will occur, but don't say how much it will effect performance, that is true and that is part of the problem.

Although the technology is old its really only relatively recently that its been brought to the fore and no really authoritative UK information seems available.

Some say it does make a big difference and other just simply overlook it?

Is it the green lobby pushing for acceptance of new renewable energy supplies or is it a scientifically proven efficient technology?

Who is right, I have no idea. That is why I said it needs careful consideration before you buy a very expensive ASHP set up.

Don't get me wrong, if they are proven to be good I would be one of the first to advocate their wholesale use. The idea is a good one.
 
himac, you are very clever if you fully understand all that, you should work for worcester bosch. I though that the ASHP stoped working at -20 because that is the temperture that the gas boils at, so if the gas wouldnt boil, the process wouldnt work. in simple terms.

Wish i had the worcester bosch explainantion to quote.

Well I installed a 12kw unit and that heats hot water and heating, whereas before it was all electric storage heaters and an immersion. The actual units took me a day to install, but took a bit longer because i had to run a larger water main for the intergrated unvented cylinder. As for savings, i will let you all know when he gets his lecy bill through. But i can tell you the meter goes round like a windmill.
 
Thanks Jimbob and Bernie , now these are the kind of replys that i was looking for in the beginning.
Next month I will be fitting a 5 kw unit in a converted garage in the next month , the garage intended use is a library and work shop . I will report back and tell you all my findings. If it goes well I maybe fitting a lot more in the near future. I also thought ashp failed at -20 . Thanks again guys
Kind Regards Mark
 
And the reason scientists will never achieve 0K is because of the number 'e' which equates to 2.71828...etc... I wont go into to it but for every 1K closer you get to 0 along the 'x' axis, it gets 2.71828 harder on the 'y' axis which means we'll always come close but never actually hit -273.15 and if we did? the world would stop, as simple harmonic motion would cease!
 
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Good morning alph250,,I was not making out that I had not done a copy and paste job,As for not knowing what I am at,you are welcome to come to my showroom where I have been selling my design heat pumps for many years..I like the truth to be told about heat pumps as the lies being told are giving a bad name to the heat pump industry.
 
Mike, could you tell me the manufacturer of the ASHP's you are using and the same for the combined ASHP & UnVcyl. I am very interested in these alternative sources and would like to seek more information.
Thanks
Bob

Himac, which products do you sell? presumably to installers.
 
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when was the last time you saw -20 in your area, his leccy meter might have been spinning bet the gas wasnt moving though
 
hi markfxy
I feel your missing the point here, ASHP,s are capable of working down to these temps and you are quite right we dont get theses temps in the uk. yes the electric meter may well be spinning but there are a lot of people in this country with out natural gas, whos only option is either oil, LPG or electric, with the price of oil and Lpg, then for some people ASHP,s are the way forward, I am fortunate that in my area there are a lot of communities not on natural gas, hence the reason I have been doing such installations.
Regards
Mike
 
:D:D:D:D
Well thats me converted . We have just finnished the garage conversion c/w ashp , what a great piece of kit . I can now go into a customers house and with my hand on my heart I can honestly say I want one in my own home to heat my hot water / central heating ..
thanks guys

all the best mark
 
Hi Mark, i have just had an air flow heat pump fitted, its 11kw output and heats underfloor heating downstairs and 5 radiators upstairs. The heating out put is very good and hot water easily achieves the 45 degrees ive set it for. Overall im very happy plus the Gov is offering a 30 percent grant. Only prob ive had is the digital thermostats ive had installed to cover two downstairs zones, they dont seem to work properly and constantly click, Polypipe PB PZP.
 
[FONT=&quot]I have been reading this thread with interest and have some questions that I hope some of you can help with.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I currently have a 4bed semi with oil boiler and rads. I want to install an Air-water heat pump - and have it set to kick in only when it is economical to use, with the oil boiler kicking in otherwise.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What issues arise when adding a system to an existing oil boiler/rads setup?

I have heard the difference with using them in this part of the world in comparison with Scandanavia is that there is an issue with them icing up due to the humidity in our climate. Whilst they are equipped with the ability to deice - this costs a fortune in lecky. I have read about people who have put built their own diy housing around the unit to help overcome this problem. Has anyone any thoughts on this particular issue?
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have a list of systems - and before I even start looking at the specs, what exactly is important?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Are there any systems folks here would recommend (and if so for what reason)? By the same token, are there systems you would suggest not to touch with a barge pole?[/FONT]
 
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Hi,
Interesting topic, I haven't fitted one of these (yet), How noisy are they ? Has anyone who's fitted one had any complaints about the noise ?

Delonghi do one with an advertised heat output of 65 degrees !


Thanks
blod
 
BLOD said:
Hi,
Interesting topic, I haven't fitted one of these (yet), How noisy are they ? Has anyone who's fitted one had any complaints about the noise ?

Delonghi do one with an advertised heat output of 65 degrees !


Thanks
blod
Click to expand...

I have fitted an NIBE VVM300 and i was worried about the noise level too but the noise level has turned out to be minimum. Our unit is right outside our bedroom window and doesnt disturb us.
 
Hi Raymundi, thanks for the reply.
Are you pleased with its heat output during the recent cold weather ?

regards
blod
 
Raymundi said:
I have fitted an NIBE VVM300 and i was worried about the noise level too but the noise level has turned out to be minimum. Our unit is right outside our bedroom window and doesnt disturb us.
Click to expand...
Are you using just this unit - or is this a primary/secondary heating source?
Output to rads or underfloor?
What are your lecky bills looking like?
 
BLOD said:
Hi Raymundi, thanks for the reply.
Are you pleased with its heat output during the recent cold weather ?

regards
blod
Click to expand...

Yeah the output is very good, in fact to good sometimes as the system can be hard to regulate like a normal gas or electric heating system. We have had temp here this last few weeks of between minus 1 and minus 10 and our house has remained roasting.

We have underfloor heating downstairs (which prob doesnt help with the regulating) and rads upstairs (when using rads you need to use high output rads)

Hi the lecky bills are about £60 per month but that includes lighting etc. We will prob turn the system on to hot water supply only in May through till about Oct which will bring the bills down further. We have rads upstairs and underfloor downstairs.
 
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Raymundi said:
Yeah the output is very good, in fact to good sometimes as the system can be hard to regulate like a normal gas or electric heating system. We have had temp here this last few weeks of between minus 1 and minus 10 and our house has remained roasting.

We have underfloor heating downstairs (which prob doesnt help with the regulating) and rads upstairs (when using rads you need to use high output rads)

Hi the lecky bills are about £60 per month but that includes lighting etc. We will prob turn the system on to hot water supply only in May through till about Oct which will bring the bills down further. We have rads upstairs and underfloor downstairs.
Click to expand...

This can be solved with the installation of a buffer tank. Basically a tank which creates a second circuit, so a primary circuit from the heat pump to a tank, directly flowing round heating the tank, this could also be linked in with a towell rad if you fancy. Then a second circuit with another pump going from the buffer to the heating system. not 100% sure how it would be piped with regards to a DHWC though, would probably also come off the second circuit.

Down side to buffer tanks is that they need to be quite large to be effective
 
Hi guys.

I spend all day every day dealing with ASHP's in one capacity or another. (well I would do, wouldnt I..)

Here are some tidy points.

Beware the heat pumps which are a converted chinese water heater like the trianco and many others. They have no way of talking to the heating and hot water controls so you're up the creek for controlling the things. What good is a time controller that has no relationship with your heating y or s plan?????

Heat pumps (many) will achieve 65 degrees no problem.

Heat pumps are less efficient at lower temperatures. Usually these are the R417A units. These are just old R22 technology and will become a thing of the past. R410A is good.

The regulations for buffer vessel sizing : No less than 12litres per kw of output.

Heat pumps are more efficient when the load on them is not so high. They will return greater efficiency and fuel savings if your heating only needs a 45 degree flow than a 60 degree flow.

Good air source units will allow 2 set temperatures- one for heating and a higher temp for hot water.

Good air source heat pumps will have switched live for the backup boiler and IMPORTANTLY you should be able to set the outside temp at which the boiler kicks in. These units which have a fixed temperature are next to pointless. One temperature does not suit every home. (The Bivalent point)

There are considerable savings to be made against oil, but less against a well designed (not many of them) gas condensing system (not a combi).... the unit cost of gas is lower.

You will not get legionella from a heat pump.

Choose a scroll compressor over a rotary. If you can get one with vapour injection, you're laughing.

Have i got one....YES!
Have my parents got one.....YES!

Problems with noise? No.
Were we cold over the last few weeks? No.

If anyone wants to come and see one running, on a real house with old radiators and not great thermal efficiency, then let me know. You are more than welcome. Bring your own biscuits, I'll put the kettle on.

this is who I work for, and the all singing and dancing units start at £1950. Compare that to a trianco which is useless at low temps and has no heating controls and theres no contest.
 
I've just come across this thread which is very informative and exciting, I got to the last post on page 4 disappointed that I had reached the end of the thread.

I'm in the middle of an installation of an 8kw Ecodan. I'm waiting for my system to be commissioned and now that my old Gas boiler has been ripped out and I have no heating I feel vulnerable and although I am excited to get my system online I'm now starting to panic a little.

With regards to 'good' ASHP units, is the Ecodan one of the better ones. Being a Mitsubishi I am hoping so! I knew NOTHING about any type of heating systems (traditional or new 'greener' technologies) so please bear with me.

My slight concern is the immersion heater on the water cylinder having been told that traditional IH are expensive to run. Although I think I read above that this can be set to boost water temperature once a week to kill Legionella?

I was the system's biggest advocate whilst waiting for delivery, now I am in limbo land waiting for commissioning I'm searching the web and finally I have come across some positives on this thread.

Any feedback regarding the Ecodan would be appreciated.

Many thanks,

Rob.
 
The Ecodan is not a bad piece of kit it depends mainly on the designer of the system as to weather it performs as its supposed to and weather its got the required capacity that needed not just whats calculated
 
For me the price of Air Source hat pumps is unrealistic. Yes, of course you can buy them for less than 2k but are they UKAS and MCS registered? I doubt it. they are not registered for a reason. They are sh*t! MCS is a body that will only accredit thos heat pumps that will work in the UK.

The other problem is that those that are UKAS and MCS accredited are very expensive. So you have to judge between the two UKAS and MCS or not? My take is dont buy thos that are not accredited as you will be cold and have big bills. The only answer is to find those accredited and well priced. Heres one Ive found huskyheatpumps.co.uk:)
 
MCS accredited Ashp £2000ish speak to unguided1 one he's installed loads
 
Do they include a free buffer and hot water tank? Sounds Ok at that price. Mike
 
I'm not sure why you say the price is "unrealistic".

How much is a decent boiler at present (fitted) - around £2000? The Ecodan ASHP and the water cyclinder is around £6000 but with the grant and/or renewable heating inititative the who system will pay for itself within a couple of years. Sure there is some initial investment involved but long-term it will pay.

Like anything you get what you pay for with regards to the pump.

Rob.
 
As an installer of heat pumps for over 15 years its interesting to see some some interesting comments.
They are more efficient than any other heating system, even nat gas down to just below 0C, they are less efficient at higher output temps and to get 65C in the cylinder for legionella protection we fit a time clock to switch on for 1 hour per week to increase the temp. If using electric showers this option isn't really required as its the fine mist possible in a shower that may transfer the virus. Think I read somewhere you are more likely to be stuck by lightening twice beforehand!!
Heatpumps work well with double convectors or indeed fan coil units, cheaper units are better just for underfloor heating or just for DHW
Mike
ps, am a refrigeration engineer too so know all about the working of these things.
 
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