Just had an argument about tightness testing

[kirkgas]

Yes that is right.

Mr TP is home and he can't believe such heated debate among all you Gas Qualified engineers!

There is nothing wrong with doing TT before any work, I said I think it might be a good idea and I asked whether you had found this useful.

According to the Rules, however, eg: on GSR technical guidence website, it is NOT compulsory to do a TT before any gas work.
Kirkgas, what you are saying makes sense but the question is about what what are the rules.

MR TP tells me you should do a TT before anything else IF the customer smells gas.
Like Kirk gas he would do a TT before any alteration of the gas carcus eg installation of new appliance, because AFTER any alteration to the gas Carcus NO DROP is permissible.

Kirkgas this is what you said and you are right.
There is no permissible drop after installation of boilers or other pipework alterations.

As for after servicing no TT OK.
Anything else:
The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998
6 (6) Where a person carries out any work in relation to a gas fitting which might affect the gas tightness of the gas installation he shall immediately thereafter test the installation for gas tightness at least as far as the nearest valves upstream and downstream in the installation.
There i s more explanation of this at GSR website, when you login as installer.

the point i have highlighted and underlined isnt correct, see if you can check on GSR and see where you have went wrong

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

oo I love a quiz! The worst thing about GSR is trying to put in the impossible password to login, not sure how to change it to PASSWORD.
And Mr TP has gone out again so i can't ask him.

 

[tamz]

From IGE UP1B

5.4 NEW EXTENSIONS/ALTERATIONS TO EXISTING INSTALLATIONS
Before commencing the new work, the existing installation shall be tightness
tested in accordance with clause 5.3.2 and any permissible pressure drop over
the 2 minute test period noted (see also Sub-Section 4.2).
Upon completion of the work to the existing system, the tightness test shall be
repeated and the pressure loss after the 2 minute test period shall be no greater
than that previously measured and there shall be no smell of gas.

This is how it should be done.

 

[GQuigley67]

if you don't do a TT before you alter pipe then you can't prove tightness simple as really

 

[Bartdude]

Well Kirk teaches the rules every day,so now I guess he's on a busmans holiday

 

[kirkgas]

From IGE UP1B

5.4 NEW EXTENSIONS/ALTERATIONS TO EXISTING INSTALLATIONS
Before commencing the new work, the existing installation shall be tightness
tested in accordance with clause 5.3.2 and any permissible pressure drop over
the 2 minute test period noted (see also Sub-Section 4.2).
Upon completion of the work to the existing system, the tightness test shall be
repeated and the pressure loss after the 2 minute test period shall be no greater
than that previously measured and there shall be no smell of gas.

This is how it should be done.

tamz you are a sook, she had to go and find the answer, as she keeps advising us where we can check info,

 

[kirkgas]

if you don't do a TT before you alter pipe then you can't prove tightness simple as really

you can if you are lucky and there isnt a leak to start with cause when you are finished there wont be one, however it is too late after you have finished if you find a leak when you are done

 

[GQuigley67]

true but you know what i mean, im not typing long answers today only got 1 hand lol

 

[kirkgas]

oo I love a quiz! The worst thing about GSR is trying to put in the impossible password to login, not sure how to change it to PASSWORD.
And Mr TP has gone out again so i can't ask him.

i dont think you can change it, once registered to use it you key in the 6 digit company number then the individual operative number, and if you are not the registered person you shouldnt be logging in to the inner sanctum where we the great of gas can keep our distance from the ordinary plebs of society

 

[kirkgas]

true but you know what i mean, im not typing long answers today only got 1 hand lol

yea, forgot you were getting operation, how did it go, must be not too bad if you are on here

 

[GQuigley67]

was only 10 minute op and wasn't sedated so im fine in a way, starting to get worried the fact my finger has been numb for nearlly 10 hours, local anesthetic usually wears off around 4 hours, waiting on nhs 24 phoning me back hope they haven't damaged a nerve maybe i'm being over cautious but i havent been numb this long before

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

tamz you are a sook, she had to go and find the answer, as she keeps advising us where we can check info,

tamz is a Gem!
That's how I like information- facts, figures, references and research!!!

You know I'm not a heating engineeer, I didn't and don't know the answer to the original question and I will never need to. What interested me is that surely this is info that heating engineers should know and should easily be able to check up on. And yet it seems in this thread that they don't!

Actually I am sure most do. I'm also sure most heating engineers do know what they need to and do a very good job. And then there is a worryingly high number of people out there just having a go with out the qualifications or the knowledge. And crucially not even realising how dangerous thay are.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

i dont think you can change it, once registered to use it you key in the 6 digit company number then the individual operative number, and if you are not the registered person you shouldnt be logging in to the inner sanctum where we the great of gas can keep our distance from the ordinary plebs of society

I don't Want to argue with you BUT...! Only joking
Actually, despite being a pleb it is my number and password.
Well, I think it is? May be it isn't, may be it is Mr TPs? We do have other opperative too.
I am a director and we have only ever had one log in number, which is 5 digits and a password.
The problem I have with the password is the mix of captials, lower case and numbers.
I think i type them in all the wrong order and I don't think it recognises the numbers if I type on the number keypad. I always end up having to imput it all 3 or 4 times before I get in.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

this is simply cos you are not a gas safe register plumber

 

[kirkgas]

I don't Want to argue with you BUT...! Only joking
Actually, despite being a pleb it is my number and password.
Well, I think it is? May be it isn't, may be it is Mr TPs? We do have other opperative too.
I am a director and we have only ever had one log in number, which is 5 digits and a password.
The problem I have with the password is the mix of captials, lower case and numbers.
I think i type them in all the wrong order and I don't think it recognises the numbers if I type on the number keypad. I always end up having to imput it all 3 or 4 times before I get in.

as director then the company number is yours, and as you rightly say and know you dont need gas quals to run a gas company (which is where a lot of the bother starts haha) im sure when i log in i use company 6 digit number and personal ID number, but cant be 100% as i dont go on it too often and cant remember just seem to do it automatically, as we get update info from various sources, you will obviously also know as director you have sole responsibility for ensuring you have a robust Gas Management System or Method Statement and that all your operatives are kept updated with all new reg changes, TB's and every other piece of blame that will come your way if one of the operatives comes a cropper, but thats why you get the big bucks and the company Jaguar

 

[GQuigley67]

i changd my password jst not my ID keep forgetting it though

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

as director then the company number is yours, and as you rightly say and know you dont need gas quals to run a gas company (which is where a lot of the bother starts haha) im sure when i log in i use company 6 digit number and personal ID number, but cant be 100% as i dont go on it too often and cant remember just seem to do it automatically, as we get update info from various sources, you will obviously also know as director you have sole responsibility for ensuring you have a robust Gas Management System or Method Statement and that all your operatives are kept updated with all new reg changes, TB's and every other piece of blame that will come your way if one of the operatives comes a cropper, but thats why you get the big bucks and the company Jaguar

Yes right!

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

I don't Want to argue with you BUT...! Only joking
Actually, despite being a pleb it is my number and password.
Well, I think it is? May be it isn't, may be it is Mr TPs? We do have other opperative too.
I am a director and we have only ever had one log in number, which is 5 digits and a password.
The problem I have with the password is the mix of captials, lower case and numbers.
I think i type them in all the wrong order and I don't think it recognises the numbers if I type on the number keypad. I always end up having to imput it all 3 or 4 times before I get in.

i can conclude a few points from this
1,kirk,mrs tara plumbing and tamz are spot on
2,tamz has pulled .....LOL......

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

i am of course teasing,no offence meant just have a GSOH

 

[bob the plumber]

Second post in as many days.
Just been in plumb centre and was earwigging on two guys talking about testing.
Now I'm a commercial fitter with domestic as well. Granted I have not used my domestic that much over the years but it does get used.

Now the way I was taught was the following;

Upon entering a building to do gas work you do the following:
1 minute let-by at 10mbar
1 minute stabilisation at 20mbar keeping at 20 for that minute
2 minutes at 20mbar.
Anything above 75mbar is medium pressure and requires a different test (this was where I got into conversation with them as they said anything over 82.5 was medium)

Any Drops at stabilisation are fine, any drops within 2 minute test need to be within permitted limit otherwise test fail and you need to find the source

You then do any work IE boiler service, then after the work do the same again.

Now these two guys argued with me for five minutes that you do only need to do a 2 minute test at 20mbar.
Any drop is fine as long as there is no smell of gas.
Also that doing a test upon entry is not needed, and I was wasting my time.

Now somebody please tell me I'm right, I don't have my domestic viper with Me so cannot check, but I will be mortified if I have been doing it wrong all these years!

Honestly these lads have put complete doubt in my mind now, to the point that I'm worried about doing a test today!

YOUR 100% CORRECT, these lads by the sound of it are dangerous! any drop is permissable if you cant smell it lol, you are correct in what you say in that you are allowed drop on EXISTING pipe work if it is within permissable drop associated with the type of meter you are working from

 

[CMairiD]

From IGE UP1B

5.4 NEW EXTENSIONS/ALTERATIONS TO EXISTING INSTALLATIONS
Before commencing the new work, the existing installation shall be tightness
tested in accordance with clause 5.3.2 and any permissible pressure drop over
the 2 minute test period noted (see also Sub-Section 4.2).
Upon completion of the work to the existing system, the tightness test shall be
repeated and the pressure loss after the 2 minute test period shall be no greater
than that previously measured and there shall be no smell of gas.

This is how it should be done.

This one has been a bit of a bug bear with me. Imagine this ...

One appliance in the home, an old boiler, and it's going to be replaced. Pipework is extended to a new location and the boiler's hung and tested. From the install, you then get a LGSR that says, "1.5mbar drop over 2 mins, no smell of gas", showing the tightness test as passed.

I feel, given the scenario above, the installation has failed the tightness test.

The lines seem to be a bit blurred as to what is considered a new installation vs existing. We have existing pipework as well as new and a new appliance. I can (almost) see where some might consider this an existing installation because of the pipework.

Even if the initial TT showed a drop of 1.5mbar or less given the single appliance, I still believe you can't have any drop in this case.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

tt before install and having 1.5 drop there is no way I will fit a new boiler to it ,is going to be new gas run !
did safety check last winter and fined 3.5m bar drop ,two weeks earlier company fit new gas fire to existing pipework with
3.5m bar drop

 

[AWheating]

There are many engineers out there that do not understand the difference between an allowable drop with exsisting appliances connected and no allowable drop on pipework only or new work.

 

[kirkgas]

This one has been a bit of a bug bear with me. Imagine this ...

One appliance in the home, an old boiler, and it's going to be replaced. Pipework is extended to a new location and the boiler's hung and tested. From the install, you then get a LGSR that says, "1.5mbar drop over 2 mins, no smell of gas", showing the tightness test as passed.

I feel, given the scenario above, the installation has failed the tightness test.

The lines seem to be a bit blurred as to what is considered a new installation vs existing. We have existing pipework as well as new and a new appliance. I can (almost) see where some might consider this an existing installation because of the pipework.

Even if the initial TT showed a drop of 1.5mbar or less given the single appliance, I still believe you can't have any drop in this case.

if you have 1 or 15 existing appliances you can leave the 1.5mb drop, however this is where i encourage engineering judgement and understanding of why we are allowed the leak in the first place, ie through miniscule drop/leak as it is undetectable, if you fit a brand new boiler and carcass on monday you cant have any drop, but on tuesday when i go to fit the new cooker, i will test and find and be allowed to leave up to 4mb, as it is existing to me, BECAUSE i know what im doing i wont leave this as it is clear there is a major problem on an install that is 24hrs old there will not be microscopic leaks as the boiler is designed differently, but as per the letter of the law i can leave it

 

[tamz]

This one has been a bit of a bug bear with me. Imagine this ...

One appliance in the home, an old boiler, and it's going to be replaced. Pipework is extended to a new location and the boiler's hung and tested. From the install, you then get a LGSR that says, "1.5mbar drop over 2 mins, no smell of gas", showing the tightness test as passed.

I feel, given the scenario above, the installation has failed the tightness test.

You are 100% correct. It has failed as the boiler was a new installation.
The drop is only allowed with existing appliances connected. As the (only) existing appliance has been removed you now have some existing pipework and a new bit of pipe run. No leakage is allowed on pipework, existing or otherwise.
Hope i explained that right as i'm in a hurry to get to the pub.

 

[GQuigley67]

yes it is imprortant to know that the drop is only allowed with appliances included in TT, if you isolate appliances and test carcass and there is a drop that is a big NO NO

 

[CMairiD]

'Sok Tamz, you explained it perfectly and I'm just home from the pub! *hic*

 

[Dotty]

i am of course teasing,no offence meant just have a GSOH

No. Really. I think he has!

 

[Pssst]

Sound like the sort of tossers I used to see in Plumb Centers all the time before I stopped using em; Snickers work trousers (Regulation bright blue), Walk straight round counter like they own the place and get their gear from the back themselves, rest beer gut on counter while drinking free coffee and telling everyone that will listen that "They're pulled out with work, aint had a day off since 1976, fitted 2 full systems since 8 this morning and still got another 3 to fit before 4 o clock & I don't need to do a tightness test cos I'm the bestest fastest gas fitter in (Insert the town/city of your choice)!" I always do a test before and after every job cos to be honest, I'm just too pretty to go to prison
These sort of blokes can make you doubt yourself and love to think they look big in the merchants. Rant over!!

Hahahahaha..that description is so true...as is the OPs methodology.

Always test before doing anything.

That way,you know where your starting from and most importantly,you can indicate to the customer that there are issues before starting,thus keeping yourself in the clear,giving the punter confidence in your work and maybe picking up some extra business in finding and fixing the problem.

 

[metaldust9]

every landlord cert ive seen says TT test yes/no ,so if its not needed whys it on there,i would always do one ,cos youre the last in there and owt gones wrong your to blame full stop they.ll come after you doesnt matter to me weather its a l mb drop or a four mb drop i still dont feel comforable with any drop as it will only get worse over time ,so i always cover myself

 

[mylesy]

the permisable drop is only allowed on existing appliances, if you isolate all the appliances and test the pipework only then there is no drop allowed at all. even if there is on an existing appliance with no smell of gas id find out which applience it is an investigate it. at the end of the day its down to you with this rule. i dont like having a drop at all. test at beggining to make sure its not you that has disturbed the pipework. always good to excercise caution.

 

[Babylunch]

I am a ng engineer and if I talked to those too knob heads at a job and they gave me those answer's, riddor and hse would be my next conversation, and to the guy who posted this, your spot on with your testing limits. , But you are allowed a pd drop depending on mtr size and pipework size and installation. As long as there is no smell,

 

[jase158]

Second post in as many days.
Just been in plumb centre and was earwigging on two guys talking about testing.
Now I'm a commercial fitter with domestic as well. Granted I have not used my domestic that much over the years but it does get used.

Now the way I was taught was the following;

Upon entering a building to do gas work you do the following:
1 minute let-by at 10mbar
1 minute stabilisation at 20mbar keeping at 20 for that minute
2 minutes at 20mbar.
Anything above 75mbar is medium pressure and requires a different test (this was where I got into conversation with them as they said anything over 82.5 was medium)

Any Drops at stabilisation are fine, any drops within 2 minute test need to be within permitted limit otherwise test fail and you need to find the source

You then do any work IE boiler service, then after the work do the same again.

Now these two guys argued with me for five minutes that you do only need to do a 2 minute test at 20mbar.
Any drop is fine as long as there is no smell of gas.
Also that doing a test upon entry is not needed, and I was wasting my time.

Now somebody please tell me I'm right, I don't have my domestic viper with Me so cannot check, but I will be mortified if I have been doing it wrong all these years!

Honestly these lads have put complete doubt in my mind now, to the point that I'm worried about doing a test today!

Now I am not gas safe registered yet, but isnt it obvious, if there is a drop, there is a leak, which means that there is gas leaking into a house, which means that the installation is dangerous, I also got told by college that the first test must be done as if it is leaking then you must cut the gas off and declare it as unsafe, if the customer does not let you fix it, then you must report it to the gas board, I believe.

And common sense is that if you don't do the test first, then when you work on it, you may cause the already leaking pipe to get worse and of course, the customer will always blame you.
"it was working before you came"

 

[AWheating]

Now I am not gas safe registered yet, but isnt it obvious, if there is a drop, there is a leak, which means that there is gas leaking into a house, which means that the installation is dangerous, I also got told by college that the first test must be done as if it is leaking then you must cut the gas off and declare it as unsafe, if the customer does not let you fix it, then you must report it to the gas board, I believe.

And common sense is that if you don't do the test first, then when you work on it, you may cause the already leaking pipe to get worse and of course, the customer will always blame you.
"it was working before you came"

you are allowed a small drop if appliances are connected as stated by others in the post.

you can only "cut the gas off" with permission, if you can not gain permission you then need to inform the gas board. They will then come along and do whatever is needed to make safe, this can include digging up road and cutting gas supply.

 

[Pssst]

As many will know, its quite possible to have no perceptible drop but still have a smellable leak.

Equally, in the right circ you could have a drop or a rise which isnt attributable to leakage/let by.