Gas Engineers > What is the correct procedure attending a boiler breakdown?

[Ibraheem]

Hi there guys i know this might sound like a silly question. I am a new learner (not qualified yet) and i just want to know the correct procedures on what you should do in an event of a boiler breakdown. For example lets say if the boiler is leaking... Do you Isolate water and gas to the boiler first? or do you have to do the usual let by and tightness test and then the other stuff?

 

[Riley]

Will really hinge on the fault reported

 

[Scott_1979]

I wouldn’t isolate the gas for a water leak no

It’ll come with experience, you can usually discount many of the parts based on the information given by the customer. That will dictate how you will approach the issue.

 

[Ibraheem]

@Scott_1979 @Riley thanks for the reply guys but lets say once you have have fixed the issue with the boiler. do you have to do all of the testing again like...

let by, stabilisation and tightness test?
gas rate?
Working pressures?
Co2 combustion checks?

if you get what i mean?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

depends what the fault was

lets say diverter leaking

i wouldnt do a

let by or tt
gas rate
working pressure
or fga test

i would do a visual check of the boiler
visual check of the case seals
and i would listen to how it starts up you can normally guess how its running

 

[king of pipes]

Think the guys have it covered on this one . Kop

 

[AMGasServices]

1 rule I’ve always followed is

Anything I do with out removing the combustion chamber it’s a visual only.

For example changing a Baxi 105e pump visual only not disturbed anything affecting combustion. Documented well because no one will help you when your standing in the doc. That piece of paper can be your get out of jail card.

If I was changing a pump on a Worcester 24i junior greenstar I’d do a gas rate and record flue analyser readings. Again documented well.

Only do a full tightness test when necessary. If you do a tightness test on every job you’re opening a can of worms.

BG started doing a tightness test on every job but scrapped it soon after.

Homeserve used to do a mini tightness test on the gas valve they scrapped that pretty quickly. (Only do it when changing a gas valve or see if it’s opening)

According to the old regs after a tightness test we had to purge and relight each appliance thankfully now it’s changed. Only purge and relight once you’ve let air in to the system from the furthest appliance away.

 

[Rob Foster]

Hi there guys i know this might sound like a silly question. I am a new learner (not qualified yet) and i just want to know the correct procedures on what you should do in an event of a boiler breakdown. For example lets say if the boiler is leaking... Do you Isolate water and gas to the boiler first? or do you have to do the usual let by and tightness test and then the other stuff?

There is one important issue here which sometimes gets forgotten. Go through with the customer what is wrong in their words AND then EXAMINE all the rest of the system as much as possible check for other unreported defects. Unscrupulous customers can try and load pre existing problems they know about on to naive fitters. Like you fix a diverter then find afterwards the timer is LALA but they will leave it with you. Generally people are nice and honest but some ...usually well healed ones
Can try it on, ones from Formby where I live are the worst ever for this In my opinion

 

[RoryD]

Regarding Gas, for me, follow the ignition sequence to see where it fails. For more complex problems do all the basics. Pressure, Gas rate, measure voltages and resistances. Never be afraid to call the manufacturers Technical helpdesk, they know their boiler.

 

[firemant]

depends what the fault was

lets say diverter leaking

i wouldnt do a...
gas rate
working pressure

26.9 ?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

26.9 ?

So you give an appliance a service after you replace a water part for free

In the real world no one does anything more than a visual

Unless theve changed something that would effect them

 

[firemant]

So you give an appliance a service after you replace a water part for free

In the real world no one does anything more than a visual

Unless theve changed something that would effect them

Who mentioned a service? You are REQUIRED to conduct the tests outlined in 26.9 whenever you work on a gas appliance. Or does repairing/replacing a diverter valve not count as working in a boiler?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Who mentioned a service? You are REQUIRED to conduct the tests outlined in 26.9 whenever you work on a gas appliance. Or does repairing/replacing a diverter valve not count as working in a boiler?

Which is what a basic service is

Fga gas rate etc

 

[firemant]

Jeez. You may call that a service. You have no idea to what I am referring, do you?

 

[firemant]

(9) Where a person performs work on a gas appliance he shall immediately thereafter examine—

(a)​

the effectiveness of any flue;​

(b)​

the supply of combustion air;​

(c)​

its operating pressure or heat input or, where necessary, both;​

(d)​

its operation so as to ensure its safe functioning,​

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Jeez. You may call that a service. You have no idea to what I am referring, do you?

Yes 26.9 Reference is

Flue gases
Combustion air
Op pressure / input
Operation

Which in turn is the same as you would do in servicing

 

[firemant]

Yes 26.9 Reference is

Flue gases
Combustion air
Op pressure / input
Operation

Which in turn is the same as you would do in servicing

But you will not comply with the regs? Bit surprised, Shaun, did not expect that of you

 

[ShaunCorbs]

But you will not comply with the regs? Bit surprised, Shaun, did not expect that of you

So after topping up an expansion vessel you would service the boiler

 

[firemant]

Shaun. 26.9 is NOT a service. It is the minimum required when attending a gas appliance. Even if you are there to top up an EV, your attention and subsequent leaving it working counts as an affirmation that all is safe with the boiler. The regs demand that, to be sure, you complete 26.9.

Really, what bit do you not understand?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Shaun. 26.9 is NOT a service. It is the minimum required when attending a gas appliance. Even if you are there to top up an EV, your attention and subsequent leaving it working counts as an affirmation that all is safe with the boiler. The regs demand that, to be sure, you complete 26.9.

Really, what bit do you not understand?

Think you should email bg then

How's the homeowner supposed to do these checks when they replace a diverter valve on a 105

 

[firemant]

Think you should email bg then

How's the homeowner supposed to do these checks when they replace a diverter valve on a 105

Come on, Shaun, stop digging holes. A homeowner is not subject to 26.9, but, as a RGI, presumably, you are.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Come on, Shaun, stop digging holes. A homeowner is not subject to 26.9, but, as a RGI, presumably, you are.

Why not same situation also you haven't addressed anything in regards to bg

Also sparkys wiring boiler same checks must be applied then as theve disturbed the seal

 

[firemant]

Why not same situation also you haven't addressed anything in regards to bg

Also sparkys wiring boiler same checks must be applied then as theve disturbed the seal

Homeowners are not trained as RGI's therefore not subject to the same rules,or have the same responsibilities. In the same way that a removal man can disconnect a plug in cooker without being subject to the regs, whereas we would be.

What about BG? Their RGI's are subject to 26.9. Whether an individual complies is another thing - you clearly do not. I did a short stint as a BG contractor, and their "service", includes all of 26.9.

Re electricians. They should not be removing the case and breaking the seal, unless a RGI is also in attendance to reinstate the appliance. Apart from electricians who also hold gas certs.

Can you not see that the regs insist that you do 26.9. I am a little confused that you are arguing on this. I suspect that any GS inspector reading this would be interested in your ID.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Homeowners are not trained as RGI's therefore not subject to the same rules,or have the same responsibilities. In the same way that a removal man can disconnect a plug in cooker without being subject to the regs, whereas we would be.

What about BG? Their RGI's are subject to 26.9. Whether an individual complies is another thing - you clearly do not. I did a short stint as a BG contractor, and their "service", includes all of 26.9.

Re electricians. They should not be removing the case and breaking the seal, unless a RGI is also in attendance to reinstate the appliance. Apart from electricians who also hold gas certs.

Can you not see that the regs insist that you do 26.9. I am a little confused that you are arguing on this. I suspect that any GS inspector reading this would be interested in your ID.

This is from an inspector

Unless your changing a gas part that could effect the burning / you something you need to set it up visual only

Carry on how you are and I will do the same

 

[firemant]

Fair enough we can agree to do that. But your inspector is wrong, or you misunderstood him. Get him to put it in writing. As I posted earlier, this is a direct lift from the regs:

(9) Where a person performs work on a gas appliance he shall immediately thereafter examine—

(a)​

the effectiveness of any flue;
(b)
the supply of combustion air;
(c)
its operating pressure or heat input or, where necessary, both;
(d)
its operation so as to ensure its safe functioning,
I do not see any bit saying this only applies when fitting parts. Are you sure he was not referring tp the need or otherwise of conducting a FGA?

EDIT: For some reason, copying this is affecting the text set up.​

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Fair enough we can agree to do that. But your inspector is wrong, or you misunderstood him. Get him to put it in writing. As I posted earlier, this is a direct lift from the regs:

(9) Where a person performs work on a gas appliance he shall immediately thereafter examine—

(a)​

the effectiveness of any flue;
(b)
the supply of combustion air;
(c)
its operating pressure or heat input or, where necessary, both;
(d)
its operation so as to ensure its safe functioning,
I do not see any bit saying this only applies when fitting parts. Are you sure he was not referring tp the need or otherwise of conducting a FGA?

EDIT: For some reason, copying this is affecting the text set up.​

Only says examine which could mean visual

 

[firemant]

Only says examine which could mean visual

You can VISUALLY examine gas pressure and/or the gas rate?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

You can VISUALLY examine gas pressure and/or the gas rate?

Gas rate you can as it says or only need one

 

[firemant]

Hi there guys i know this might sound like a silly question. I am a new learner (not qualified yet) and i just want to know the correct procedures on what you should do in an event of a boiler breakdown. For example lets say if the boiler is leaking... Do you Isolate water and gas to the boiler first? or do you have to do the usual let by and tightness test and then the other stuff?

Ibraheem, hopefully your mentor / trainers will put you right on this. Breakdown jobs range from the stupidly easy, to the practically impossible. Fault finding demands a logical approach, which (as someone else suggested) is a skill learned and developed.

Before opening your toolbox, you should first try to employ the most useful tool. The customer. Some are complete idiots, but with careful questioning you can often pinpoint the problem, before taking the case off. But never actually take their word as Gospel. Some are dishonest, some are confused, and some don't actually understand the questions.

In the absence if common sense, or to confirm your initial diagnosis, you essentially work out how far into the expected sequence the boiler is going. For example, if the ignition is trying to spark, you can be pretty sure the fan is running.

On most boilers, if the HW works, but he CG doesn't, the pump is working. But those are basic and obvious.

But do not start pulling things out before you have attempted to run the appliance, observed and listened.

And comply with 26.9, which I am sure you have come across in training.

Are you in a job, or do you intend going SE? If the latter, invest in the 3 day Baxi Course. It is excellent, and is not a sales pitch. You also get a reasonable lunch. Also join the Honeywell installers club. They offer a free (at least they used to) one day course on wiring and fault finding. It is pretty good. And the lunch is excellent, especially as it is free.

I do like lunch

 

[firemant]

Gas rate you can as it says or only need one

Seriously?

I suspect that the lack of comments from other RGI's is be cause you are a generally popular correspondent, whereas I am an infrequent visitor. If you were supporting my argument, and I yours, we would be inundated with responses.

How can you visually check a Gas Rate?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Seriously?

I suspect that the lack of comments from other RGI's is be cause you are a generally popular correspondent, whereas I am an infrequent visitor. If you were supporting my argument, and I yours, we would be inundated with responses.

How can you visually check a Gas Rate?

its not hard if you know if you dont

write the number down time then write the numbers down work it out from there or time it if imperial

or if you do know what kw should give you like

.10 is 30kw
.095 is 28kw
.08 is 24 kw
.05 is 15kw

 

[firemant]

its not hard if you know if you dont

write the number down time then write the numbers down work it out from there or time it if imperial

or if you do know what kw should give you like

.10 is 30kw
.095 is 28kw
.08 is 24 kw
.05 is 15kw

A bit of back tracking? What you are describing is actually Gas Rating. My personal preference, as it happens, to calculate (metric) is finish - start (2 mins) * 322.8 = Kw/hr.

However this farcical series of posts started when you stated:

i wouldnt do a

let by or tt
gas rate
working pressure
or fga test

i would do a visual check of the boiler
visual check of the case seals.

But now you are acknowledging that you would do a gas rate.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

A bit of back tracking? What you are describing is actually Gas Rating. My personal preference, as it happens, to calculate (metric) is finish - start (2 mins) * 322.8 = Kw/hr.

However this farcical series of posts started when you stated:

i wouldnt do a

let by or tt
gas rate
working pressure
or fga test

i would do a visual check of the boiler
visual check of the case seals.

But now you are acknowledging that you would do a gas rate.

only to keep you happy and end this debate as its going no where

if you look back you asked how you could do a visual gas rate which ive answered, didnt say i did one i just know the figures off my head

these days you could as you do it or use an app or get to know the figures gets to the same end

 

[firemant]

Okay. We can end this nonsense. As you keep twisting, and obviously do not comply with your obligations.

To the OP: be very careful about accepting advice from any forum, without double checking. This forum, in particular, is replete with guys who have little knowledge of the regulations.
It is full if inaccurate statements, for example, regarding the REQUIREMENTS for tightness testing, and the status, nature and requirements of Landlord Certs (CP12's).
Having said that, Shaun is normally one of the better ones.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

dont need to tt on land lord gas safety certificates