settle a dispute...... no isolation on free standing cooker

[moony]

is there a need to put a gas cock before the bayonet on a free standing cooker? or does the self sealing bayonet act as isolation?

 

[Puddle]

there is no need to put a gas isolation valve before a bayonet fitting on a free standing cooker,the bayonet fitting does act as a perminted temp gas isolation ie for allowing removing of cooker for cleaning,works and replacement,howeve it is not aacceptable permanant gas isolation point(even if a gas isolation valve was fitted before it)
If cooker removed and bayonet fitting is not going to be used long term,the pipework should be capped off in the correct manor,with a cap end,would be good if there was a cap end that just pluged into the bayonet

imho

 

[moony]

thanks puddle well that sorts that out

not only was i accused of not fitting a means of isolation, i was accused of leaving an at risk situation by the customer.... customer has been told that it should of had a gas cock fitted before the bayonet and its therefore at risk, and has been told this by gs reg plumber -- ive asked for the gs reg plumbers details whose said this and customer said to call around and they will go through it with me. so just checking before i go. Cheers puddle

 

[GQuigley67]

i had inspector out the other week and he questioned me why I fitted an isolation valve before the old bayonnet, my answer was that i was trying to rule it out from my search for a leak, I removed it anyway and now only have the new bayonnet.

 

[centralgas]

Nightmare that, there really isn't anything worse than a different gas engineer pulling your work to look the big man!

 

[leelister6]

If I get a customer questioning my work, especially if they've been told something by a "Gas Safe bloke I know" the Corgi essential gas safety book comes out and its there in black and white (and orange). Then if they've still got a problem I just tell em to get their mate to do it!

 

[kirkgas]

there is no need to put a gas isolation valve before a bayonet fitting on a free standing cooker,the bayonet fitting does act as a perminted temp gas isolation ie for allowing removing of cooker for cleaning,works and replacement,howeve it is not aacceptable permanant gas isolation point(even if a gas isolation valve was fitted before it)
If cooker removed and bayonet fitting is not going to be used long term,the pipework should be capped off in the correct manor,with a cap end,would be good if there was a cap end that just pluged into the bayonet

imho

a properly fitted gas bayonet is acceptable as a permanent point of disconnection as long as it isnt leaking

 

[Lufc plumber]

a properly fitted gas bayonet is acceptable as a permanent point of disconnection as long as it isnt leaking

No a Bayonet is not a acceptable permant point it needs to be capped, that would be ar if a bayonnet fitting is left uncapped had that question in my acs yesterday. Its just like a Lever valve that is no means of permeant isolation it has to be capped incase a little kid switches it on etc.

 

[kirkgas]

No a Bayonet is not a acceptable permant point it needs to be capped, that would be ar if a bayonnet fitting is left uncapped had that question in my acs yesterday. Its just like a Lever valve that is no means of permeant isolation it has to be capped incase a little kid switches it on etc.

how does a child "switch on " a gas bayonet? and it isnt the same as an uncapped lever valve, a bayonet is perfectly acceptable to be used as a point of disconnection, in fact it was designed for that purpose, if it can be used to disconnect a gas cooker for work/cleaning, how long can it be left disconnected before it needs to be reconnected, there is no such thing as temporary gas work so if a bayonet can be used to disconnect a gas cooker for 10 minutes it can be left indefinately, as long as it is 1) fitted properly to the fabric of the building and pointing down, 2) it is confirmed as not leaking, i have in the past removed them if the customer is def not getting another gas cooker, but had a couple of large HA's who wouldnt pay to remove them in between tenants as they asked the question "can i legally leave it in?" and my answer was as long as 1) & 2) were ok then it was their choice, again perhaps it wont be everyones idea of their way of doing it, but as i have said many times, working above the regs is ok if you have cleared it with the customer if there could be extra cost or work to be done later, if they know and are happy then it is agreed between you and them to cap or leave it, but the statement i made was in reply to someone saying you CANNOT leave a bayonet

 

[Lufc plumber]

Well as i got taught very recently like i said yesterday, a bayonnet is not aloud to be left by a gas engineer for a means of isolaation, a customer can full willing leave a gas bayonet fitting disconected for a long period of time but when that enginner comes round and servies or what ever to that gas pipe it should be capped. As my tutor said kids stick fingers where they dont belong. I had a question on it in my paws book and answered with no it cannot be left as a isolation point, and should be capped, and it dint come back as wrong

Also in my parctical on gas pipe work core, one of my faults i had to pick up was a bayonet fitting was left uncapped, and the examiner said it needed to be secured......

Also im not here to argue about it, i was just expressing what i have been taught, and that i dont think it is acceptable.

 

[centralgas]

To be fair, the short term disconnection of a cooker is far less dangerous than a cooker connected to a supply when you think about it. What's more likely: a kid to press their finger into a bayonet long enough and hard enough to release a dangerous amount of gas or the same kid walking by a cooker, knocking the hob control tap with their teddy bear and spewing gas all round the kitchen while they walk off into the front room to build a lego train??

If you disconnect a cooker for a day or so. do a quick drop test to make sure things are ok to make sure the bayonet isn't passing, or even worse, get a 1/2" plug if it's what u need to sleep at night!

Obviously for long term, cap the thing off...

Depends on the job.

 

[kirkgas]

To be fair, the short term disconnection of a cooker is far less dangerous than a cooker connected to a supply when you think about it. What's more likely: a kid to press their finger into a bayonet long enough and hard enough to release a dangerous amount of gas or the same kid walking by a cooker, knocking the hob control tap with their teddy bear and spewing gas all round the kitchen while they walk off into the front room to build a lego train??

If you disconnect a cooker for a day or so. do a quick drop test to make sure things are ok to make sure the bayonet isn't passing, or even worse, get a 1/2" plug if it's what u need to sleep at night!

Obviously for long term, cap the thing off...

Depends on the job.

i dont disagree with your opinion on capping it long term ( as i consider that to be stricter than the reg, therefore allowed), but the point i was making was that it IS allowed, as i said there is no such thing as temp gas work so is it allowed to disconnect a gas cooker via the bayonet for 3 days while work is being done say to renew floorboards due to dampness, if yes then it is allowed for permanent disconnection. If im ripping out a kitchen and electric cooker is going back in then i would discuss/advise the bayonet coming out, but it isn't mandatory

 

[kirkgas]

Well as i got taught very recently like i said yesterday, a bayonnet is not aloud to be left by a gas engineer for a means of isolaation, a customer can full willing leave a gas bayonet fitting disconected for a long period of time but when that enginner comes round and servies or what ever to that gas pipe it should be capped. As my tutor said kids stick fingers where they dont belong. I had a question on it in my paws book and answered with no it cannot be left as a isolation point, and should be capped, and it dint come back as wrong

Also in my parctical on gas pipe work core, one of my faults i had to pick up was a bayonet fitting was left uncapped, and the examiner said it needed to be secured......

Also im not here to argue about it, i was just expressing what i have been taught, and that i dont think it is acceptable.

why do you mention argue? someone asked a question, someone else answered it, i commented that they are wrong, you commented i am wrong because you have been taught differently, so we are not argueing about it merely discussing a different point of view and i would respectfully suggest you check with either your training provider and or GSR for clarification, but be sure to clarify exactly what you ask (especially GSR) as they are great at body swerving questions, but if you ask a specific accurate question you will get an answer, so the statement i would make is " a properly fitted and confirmed as gas tight bayonet can be left as a permanent point of termination for a gas pipe" a discussion for another day could be "is it best practice to leave a bayonet" and some would discuss either yes or no as that is subjective, but in the first instance let us confirm whether it is an offence to leave one, which in my opinion would make ir RIDDOR reportable if you liken it to leaving an uncapped lever gas valve

 

[Kev the gas]

Ive just read the Corgi Direct brochure and cannot find anywhere a label that says

"do not leave this bayonet fitting unattended"


So there it is it is allowed, because if it wasnt Corgi direct would sell a sticker !!!!!

Kev.

 

[metaldust9]

how can anyone compare a baynot fitting with no lever ,to an uncapped lever gas valve anyone leaving a lever valve open ended should be riddor end of story as it just has to be knocked or moved by a kid or dog brushing past it or left slightly open like in the other post and bye bye house or family a baynot is designed for perpose and it would have to be a strong kid to push a baynot in and the smaller size is to small to do owt with, as kirkgas says if an electric cooker or something was going in instead you,d cap it permently

 

[Puddle]

why do you mention argue? someone asked a question, someone else answered it, i commented that they are wrong, you commented i am wrong because you have been taught differently, so we are not argueing about it merely discussing a different point of view and i would respectfully suggest you check with either your training provider and or GSR for clarification, but be sure to clarify exactly what you ask (especially GSR) as they are great at body swerving questions, but if you ask a specific accurate question you will get an answer, so the statement i would make is " a properly fitted and confirmed as gas tight bayonet can be left as a permanent point of termination for a gas pipe" a discussion for another day could be "is it best practice to leave a bayonet" and some would discuss either yes or no as that is subjective, but in the first instance let us confirm whether it is an offence to leave one, which in my opinion would make ir RIDDOR reportable if you liken it to leaving an uncapped lever gas valve

Just for the record the someone else who answered was not wrong, you can not/should not leave a bayonet fitting as a permanent isolation point on gas pipework

We agree it is best practice hopefully and you are arguing, debating strangely that there are no regs that cover this, do you need a reg that says in black and white not do this, if so we are in trouble ?There are in fact many regulations that cover this, regarding leaving the gas installation and pipework in a safe condition and using the correct fittings on the installation

No one can argue it is safe to leave a unused /unconnected bayonet fitting long term as a permanent isolation fitting for gas pipework or that the installation is safe with it left on, the bayonet fitting is designed to be used and its usual operation will be to connected to a cooker hose and cooker if this is not the case the fitting is not the correct fitting on the pipework,

Can we cap a fire off with a bayonet fitting ,can we isolate a dangerous appliance using a bayonet fitting ect ,that argument is as misguided as the one you are making, is it safe to leave a bayonet fitting with no cooker there for children to poke and stick pens and pencils in and leave leaking, for the public to think is water and stick a cooker hose on it thinking water and unable to get off or if they do,or new owners could just press it open to see if live and a few years it has been in the closed position so long ,it will not reseal, do not forget the normal position of the valve is open when a cooker hose is connected thus the seating is not getting damaged and imprinted from valve seating, like a pressure release valve on a boiler will most of the time not reseat


I could go on,I find it hard you are disagreeing with the remark

However I will state again and there are regs that cover this

A bayonet fitting should not be left long term not connected to a cooker, as a permanent form on isolation

ps and yes, of course there is temporary /works in progress gas work,we have tempary earth bonding clamps, we have temp pipe dead legs while appliances are fitted ect,we have boiler and appliance operation before commission and set up, be it only a short time ect
There is no room for interpretation here ,the only discussion could be how long is temporary disconnection
imho

:rant:

hoas kirkgas says if an electric cooker or something was going in instead you,d cap it permently

He is saying this is not required I think you will find and we are not in the game of guessing how strong kids are ,we are in the game of safety

 

[kirkgas]

Puddle, my point on there being no temporary gas work is about things needing to be done properly no matter how long you intend to leave it, eg it isnt acceptable to cap a gas supply with a plastic push fit stop end overnight, even if you guarantee to return the next day to connect an appliance it would be RIDDOR reportable, but i can guarantee you that a plastic stop end will hold gas for months without leaking (they are used in the assessment bays as a pipework fault and havent leked yet) your point about temp dead legs for appliances isnt what i was talking about as i assume your temp capped supply to a future fitted appliance would be fully properly fitted, soldered, clipped etc etc. temp continuity bond isnt reall what i meant either as it isnt gas work it is electrical continuity, the point i was making is if you do any gas work even if it is temp you cannot decrease the standards of your work, and if you disconnect a gas cooker from a bayonet and leave it for a few days it must be ok to leave it for longer ie an undetermined time, if you attend a job and there is a properly fitted bayonet which isnt leaking are you suggesting you would RIDDOR it? I wouldnt as i confirmed with CORGI years ago that it is fit for purpose to leave as a termination point, as i said if i was doing a kitchen job and was not refitting a gas cooker i would ask the customer for permission to remove it explaining it was propbably a better course of action than leaving it if they were getting electric cooker, and i have also left hundreds of them fitted as customers/landlords were not sure what was going back in, so in reality there will be plenty fitted behind electric cookers in lots of landlords houses, but when the LGSC is done a visual should be done to ensure it is fitted properly and a TT will pick up any leak, we are moving from what we discuss as best practice to what is mandatory, you state a bayonet should not be used as a permanent point of disconnection (as i said i agree if i know it is going to be permanent i ask to remove it) but what about the times we dont know how long it will be left (this is what i meant by temp gas work) to me it is either ok to leave overnight, for a few weeks or however long or it isnt.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

what about blocking the gas supply with them little dust disk (bg use them and transco ) are they fit for purpose KIRKGAS?

 

[emerald]

why doesn't someone just invent a cap that can be fitted into the end of a bayonet fitting, one which doesn't depress the spring, but also creates an additional seal incase the bayonet is leaking.

would this not solve this debate??.. i personally cut them off and cap, but that is for my own peace of mind as i find more leaks on them then anything else

 

[GQuigley67]

what about blocking the gas supply with them little dust disk (bg use them and transco ) are they fit for purpose KIRKGAS?

I have them blank discs, use them when im soldering gas pipes when i remove meter. They are designed for temporary use though wouldn't think they would be acceptable as a permanent way of capping off gas.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I have them blank discs, use them when im soldering gas pipes when i remove meter. They are designed for temporary use though wouldn't think they would be acceptable as a permanent way of capping off gas.

but do not get it why they are using it ,to me is a not fitting fit for purpose !

 

[GQuigley67]

GS Inspector didn't pull me up for using them when I blanked the gas off with them when I had a leak that I couldnt find

 

[SafeGasInstall]

so they must be fit for purpose then ! I'll wait to see what KIRK has got to say about it or regman

 

[gasmarc]

havnt read the whole thread but a bayonet does not need an isolation valve and does not have to be capped off , I presume you are talking about meter blanks which are fit for their purpose

 

[kirkgas]

metal meter discs can be left in permanently, as thats whats used when you find a leak and have to cap the meter, better than external caps as using an external meter cap breaks the continuity, and you cannot leave your temp cont bond on a meter when you leave, as long as you dont mean the plastic external for meter, or red internal for meter tails you know the red ones that screw into the meter tails when you take the meter out, the ones you all use every day:earmuffs:

PS do you know if you dont have the external plastic dust covers for the meter inlet/outlet that the screw top from a milk bottle fits (another quiet hour in the training centre it would seem!!!!!)

 

[GQuigley67]

I have the red discs and the brass caps for the meter, where could i get the metal discs?? maybe ask one of the transco guys if they have any when i see them

 

[kirkgas]

I have the red discs and the brass caps for the meter, where could i get the metal discs?? maybe ask one of the transco guys if they have any when i see them

yes transco/BG guys are the best , but if you need to buy the best/quickest is BES, get a couple of 3/4" for ecv's and some 1" for the meter outlet, WATCH OUT when ordering the washers for these, dont know why but sometimes they have sent the wrong washer for the 1" ones, and obviuosly you dont know they are wron till you go to fit them, the bore is ok but the width of the washer is too big and you cant get the meter nut back down, they are only about £0.08 each

 

[gasmarc]

usually you will find them around or in meter boxes I have never bought one in my life

 

[emerald]

same here mate, never bought one, they are the treasure i find beneath the snails and cobwebs in the meter boxes

 

[GQuigley67]

got a couple of metal discs off transco guy the other day, then found one in a meter box yesterday lol aswell as 3 washers

 

[yo1]

I think youre ment to use a new washer every time you use a disk..

 

[GQuigley67]

i think if the washer is ok then whats the point and as long as it is tight

 

[yo1]

deffinertly, just i read on a packet of washers.

 

[kirkgas]

I think youre ment to use a new washer every time you use a disk..

you MUST check the washer is sound, you dont have to change the washer every time,

 

[tamz]

you MUST check the washer is sound, you dont have to change the washer every time,

But it is good practice to change it. See your local SGN (Transco) guy and get a handful from him.
The bigger (wider) 1" washers are for blank caps. No use for tails.