Replacement Home Boiler Required - Combi or Conventional (System)?

[Associate]

Hi,

Sorry for the long post, but I think detailed information will help you in providing maximum input!

I live in a 3 bedroom end terraced house, which has a low pressure, gravity fed water system, whereby the water tanks are in the loft on the top floor, and the bathroom is on the same floor (top) as well. The house is 30 years old.

A few years ago, up in the loft, an Expansion Vessel was installed by British Gas (I think a tank may have been removed as a result, but you guys will know more about this than me! We had this done through British Gas' Home Care cover), and a Pressure Gauge was fitted in the Airing Cupboard where the hot water cylinder is. This did ensure that the boiler broke down less often.

The current boiler we have is a Micron Glow-Worm 50FF, which we've had for at least 10 years (Expansion Vessel was installed when we had this Boiler). The boiler has been ok, but in recent months when it is turned on, it does make bit more of a noise than normal (you know the sort of noise that indicates that is working away heating up the water). It seems to be working fine generally though, and I don't have any immediate concerns about it. Although, we have been thinking about having it replaced anyway if we could afford it, with a better quality boiler, and been having the feeling that this boiler may reach the end of it's shelf life in the next few years.

The Boiler when turned on, heats up the water and the gas radiators at the same time (so both connected to this Boiler. Sorry if I am stating the obvious!). There are 7 radiators in the house in total.

As part of the Govt's Affordable Warmth Scheme, where qualifying people in certain circumstances are entitled to have a new boiler installed free of charge, my mum is entitled to a new boiler as a result.

We made an application with Npower, and when their Energy Efficiency Assessor visited the property recently, after a thorough inspection, when we specifically discussed a new boiler, he said that it's best to replace this boiler with a new one, which will be more economical, and he would be recommending a Combi Condensing Boiler, but even if it is a conventional Boiler, it would definitely be a Condensing one. This is something we can discuss in greater detail with Npower's Technical Engineer at a future visit (as this guy isn't an expert in this area).

There are 3 adults that live in this house and normally use the hot water facility and shower (and radiators during winter) - me, my mum and my brother. Every few weeks my other 2 siblings and their partners will visit and may stay over for a few days.

At the moment, there is only one bathroom in the property (with toilet) that has a shower mixer. There is also a ground floor toilet too. In the future, we are thinking about installing an enclosed/suitable shower in the toilet, as there is sufficient space to do so.


There is no Immersion Heater at the moment in the house connected to the Cylinder. Never got round to it, although have been thinking about getting one installed!The green Cylinder is at least 15 years old, and it says "Albion Supalag Green" on it, and was installed by the council before we became homeowners.

Taking all the above into account, if given the option by Npower (or whichever company we end up having a the boiler replaced by), should we choose a Combi Boiler or a Conventional Boiler for our needs and best fit for this property please?


Thank you :smile5:

 

[jtsplumbing]

Boiler & Hot water cylinder (Taking into account that other people stay in the house) always look at worse case and maximum water usage, Make sure that they replace the cylinder at the same time as the one you have will not meet the new standards, if you decide on a combi go for one that offers the best water delivery ,Look at Lts per Min, but you need to make sure that you have sufficient water flow coming into the house.

 

[nysk2008]

how many bathrooms do you have?

 

[Ray Stafford]

If you are really planning to add the second shower room, and you want to use them both at the same time, keep with a conventional boiler and separate cylinder.

If you don't mind the fact that you could only use one shower at as time, it may be ok to go with the combi, particularly if you need the space that would be freed up by not having the cylinder and storage tank.

 

[Ray Stafford]

how many bathrooms do you have?

At the moment, there is only one bathroom in the property (with toilet) that has a shower mixer. There is also a ground floor toilet too. In the future, we are thinking about installing an enclosed/suitable shower in the toilet, as there is sufficient space to do so.

So one at the moment, but an ambition for a shower room in the future.

 

[jtsplumbing]

They do say one bathroom with the possibility of adding a second shower in downstairs' WC. sometimes up to 5 people staying in house. People should be given a proper choice instead of just throwing in a combi, they are not always the best option.

 

[nysk2008]

my bad, should have read post fully, as said, check pressure, flow rate and let your installer make an informed decision, either could work dependent on a few factors

 

[Associate]

Thank you to everyone for your helpful input so far. As well as making note of all the above and finding out the information that have been suggested, I'll take on board what their Technical Engineer has to say, and then weigh it all up.

From what I gather, the make of Boilers they install varies, and I will obviously have a better idea once I speak to the Technical Engineer. I think they do install intermediate level to high quality boilers, for example, Vaillant Boilers. I don't think they install low end or "budget level" Boilers.

I was wondering though, if I opt for a conventional boiler (boiler & cylinder), are there certain boiler makes/brands you can mention for me to keep an eye out for that they "may" supply, that I should push for them to install because of their renowned and proven quality, especially as my mum is elderly and disabled and it would help for something to run smoothly and trouble free (I presume Vaillant may be one of them)?

Likewise, are there certain boiler makes/brands that they "may" offer that I should keep an eye out for, that are known for being problematic and unreliable, so that I can reject them?



Same 2 questions in relation to Combi Boiler as well please.




Thank you

 

[jtsplumbing]

You will find most modern Boilers are quite reliable , as with anything with moving parts it will go wrong at some time, as for our recommendations ! we all have boilers we like and dislike, due to past experience's so you will get countless suggestion's ! and they may not offer all makes of boiler we recommend , Conventional boiler has less internal parts but has got other moving parts on the system, they may advise on a sealed system, same as conventional but pump is in the boiler and system is pressurised, ask about warranty's as the length varies from boiler to boiler , all will cover heating system, but you need to look into your water usage in peak times smaller size combi may not be suitable, and if you have a poor mains water supply don't have a combi

 

[Ermintrude]

If the boiler is on a scheme, the vendor, n power should ensure that the appliance works for the life time of the grant / payback period. U may have to pay to keep it serviced. Ask what your on going maintenance cost would be.

 

[Scott_D]

I don't think you get to select which make of boiler you have, the company you choose to fit will have a deal with a manufacturer.
For example B&Q are fitting IQE boilers
A company local to me are fitting Glow-worm

You may want to find out who is fitting your boiler, n-powers own employees or a subcontractor.

 

[Associate]

Hi,

Following on from my original post, the Technical Surveyor
visited our property couple of days ago.

He was from a firm that will actually install the new boiler
and who Npower have subcontracted to.

The Technical Surveyor was pretty thorough, professional
and helpful I thought; although I was initially a bit apprehensive and skeptical about his recommendations due to the fact that he was quite young, and didn't have vast experience in this area, although I know that in itself isn't a guarantee for knowledge and competence!

He used a Flow Measure Cup to measure the hot water flow rates
in some parts of the house to get a better picture. Here are
the results:

Kitchen sink (Ground Floor) - It was between 6-8 litres per min. Can't remember
exactly which one, but he did say that it wasn't very good.


Toilet (Ground Floor - where we plan on installing a shower in the future):
20 Litres per Minute. He said that that the pressure was very good.


Bathroom Shower Mixer Tap (Top Floor/2nd Floor): 14 Litres Per Minute.
He said that this wasn't that bad. It was ok/acceptable apparently.


He said that taking everything into account, normally he would've recommended a
Combi Boiler to Npower to install, but due to the fact that
a Combi Boiler will adversely affect the water pressure, he
would be recommending a Conventional Boiler, and that this would be the best fit for our property.

On a side note, he said that "if" we do end up installing a shower in the ground floor toilet, a Conventional Boiler would be better for this as well.

When I asked him if our green Cylinder, which is at least 15 years old, and it says "Albion Supalag Green" on it, could be replaced too, he said that it meets current standards and is in acceptable condition, so they won't be installing a new Cylinder.

Our property is 30 years old and hasn't had any new piping done since, and the current Micron Glow-Worm 50FF Boiler is well over 10 years old. I don't know if the following is a problem or just normal for the system/equipment we currently have (forgot to mention it to the Technical Surveyor in detail) - when the boiler has been on for a few hours and the water is boiling hot, unless it is kept on and we turn the Boiler off due to ample hot water,
and we do a bit of washing up and hot water is used for kitchen use - so pretty light hot water use - by the pure fact that the boiler may have been off for a 1.5 to 2 hours, means that we lose all hot water without there actually being much demand on it! I don't know if this is normal or if there is actually an issue/problem here.


Taking all the above into account, do you guys feel that a Conventional Boiler would be the best option for us?


If so, would keeping the current Cylinder be ok (the Technical Surveyor said that it doesn't look on it's last legs or anything, but I would obviously prefer everything to be brand new); or can you guys make a few suggestions on what I could say to Npower and the subcontractors in writing to seriously consider replacing the Cylinder for us as well?


Thank you.

 

[Ermintrude]

Not sure but sounds like he's going for easy Option. 20lpm in my mind = unvented or even a large combi.
Not much u can do though! Conventional will be fine but I would upgrade cylinder to a nice unvented if I were u when u do bathroom instead of wasting money with pumps ect.

 

[jtsplumbing]

If you live in a hard water area and have a 15 year old cylinder I would be replacing it

 

[Rickster123]

I don't think it's a case of just asking for what you want. I think you'll get the conventional boiler changed like for like. I doubt there is anything wrong with the existing set up. If you want to go unvented I'm fairly sure that will be an extra cost.

 

[Nostrum]

As said you get what your given to a certain degree. The scheme offers free boilers and upgrade anything that is required under part L. Trvs and controls is about as far as it goes. The money is paid on the energy savings you could potentially make. Replacing your cylinder will not make a significant enough saving to warrant the work, although I'm sure you could pay for them to do it at the same time for a reasonable cost.

i wouldn't get to hung up about the cylinder, if required it can be replaced fairly simply at any point.

You have obviously satisfied the eligibility criteria for the eco funding so there is nothing to stop you shopping around as it were if you are offered a boiler you don't want. There is no guarantee you'll get what you want though as the funders normally enter an agreement with a boiler manufacturer before offering the funding out.

Out of interest, where are you?

 

[Associate]

As said you get what your given to a certain degree. The scheme offers free boilers and upgrade anything that is required under part L. Trvs and controls is about as far as it goes. The money is paid on the energy savings you could potentially make. Replacing your cylinder will not make a significant enough saving to warrant the work, although I'm sure you could pay for them to do it at the same time for a reasonable cost.

i wouldn't get to hung up about the cylinder, if required it can be replaced fairly simply at any point.

You have obviously satisfied the eligibility criteria for the eco funding so there is nothing to stop you shopping around as it were if you are offered a boiler you don't want. There is no guarantee you'll get what you want though as the funders normally enter an agreement with a boiler manufacturer before offering the funding out.

Out of interest, where are you?

Thank you for all your contribution so far.

The Surveyor also said that he would recommend that 3 gas radiators (we have 7 in the house) get replaced as they have pin holes. He said that this is on the list of "qualifying work," so should be pretty straight forward.

In terms of type of Boiler they are going to install, there seems to be a bit of confusion in regards to the make. The Technical Surveyor said that this will be down to Npower, and it is most likely they will authorise a Baxi Solo 15 HEA ( I though I heard him say 15 8EA, but only the former came up after internet search). When I rang and spoke to Npower they said that it will be the subcontractors (Technical Surveyor) who will recommend the make of the Boiler from the "list" of Boilers Npower have given them from the information the Technical Surveyor has. This list (I think 5 makes in total) includes Baxi, Vaillant and Worcester Bosch makes. Once I get more clarification on this, I'd like to get some input from you guys on what your thoughts are on the make they have recommended and plan to install, or if I am able to have a say on this (I'm sure if I write to the Hierarchy of Npower and the subcontractors with a strong case, they will take note), what make you guys would recommend.

To answer Nostrum's question, I live in East London, E1 postcode, close to the City of London.

 

[Associate]

Just an update.

Npower informed me today that they will be installing a Conventional Baxi Solo 18 HEA in our 3 bedroom terraced house, along with replacing 3 Gas Radiators, all free of charge as part of the Affordable Warmth Scheme. No installation date has been given yet.

Any thoughts on this boiler, especially bearing in mind we currently have a Conventional
Micron Glow-Worm 50FF, which we've had for at least 10 years?


Thanks.