Real world testing example of Condensing Boiler in older home

[ShaunCorbs]

I’m guessing dt as it’s got flow and return temp sensors

 

[John.g]

Very good, a bit of a challenge maybe though to determine the optimum cycling time as the dT through a oil fired boiler (non modulating) is never the same as the rad deltaT except the boiler is underrated., but lets see.

 

[JC22024]

I’m guessing dt as it’s got flow and return temp sensors

Havn't read all the posts yet so basically is it monitoring the cycle times and then by means of a relay interrupting the switched live to the boiler?. If so, what determines the optimum cycle time?.

I think I have confused this sorry guys.

Yes Shaun the dt sensors you seen are on the domestic BEM I purchased.

However I had also purchased one of these

Energy Management Solutions | Vector Group

£30 brand new on ebay. Aparantly only fitted by them and at a cost of about £2k. So I wasn't sure what it would need or how it was wired since they provide no instructions.

So when I discovered the simple labeled connections after it arrived this evening I temporarily wired it in.

John's understanding is correct. But this vector unit does not measure pipe temperatures.

I think it waits for the boiler stat to first become satisfied on cold start. Then has some sort of programme to monitor the cycles thereafter and decide how to eliminate boiler cycling.

Haven't been watching it but had a glance earlier and it's gauges appear to be registering it is reducing burner time VS demand

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I guess it sort of learns how long things take to get upto temp and then uses that data to calculate an approximate best run time after

 

[JC22024]

I guess it sort of learns how long things take to get upto temp and then uses that data to calculate an approximate best run time after

I thought it would have sensors of some sort or connections for them but no. I find that slightly odd but they must have a programme that doesn't require that to do it's job. It makes sense though that it goes between boiler stat and burner. I think the other one should be wired the same way on any oil burner.

I will compare this one and the domestic one with dt sensors just to see do they save much run time and what they actually do to the on / off times and flow temps.

This is a good link on boiler cycling and why it's bad FWIW (you prob already know this but I found it interesting for the most part)

https://www.wcrouse.com/stop-wasting-money-reduce-boiler-cycling/

 

[John.g]

I have seen conflicting reports re efficiency loss due to cycling, am looking for one report I had that suggested it was very small but I'm a bit skeptical about this, oil fired boilers have or used to have a hydraulically operated louver that shut off the fan air intake and the oil pump pressure reopened it during the prepurge period.

 

[JC22024]

OK so some data. Upstairs zone again on it's own.

Burn time 121 secs.
Off time 136 secs
Flow temp goes between 61.7 to 70.4. Return temp 57.3.

It appears to wait when the boiler stat calls then powers burner.



The lights show the status all the time. Aka red is boiler stat off. Then it flases yellow when it's delaying and stat calling and goes to green when firing burner.

The top display turns only when the boiler stat is calling.

The lower display turns only when it powers the burner. It appears that tonight it has saved about 30 odd mins burner time

 

[John.g]

How are the room temperatures?. based on cycle time the boiler output is 12.24kw with 14 cycles/hour.

 

[JC22024]

How are the room temperatures?. based on cycle time the boiler output is 12.24kw with 14 cycles/hour.

Upstairs feels warm / like normal operation. Rads were so hot before couldn't hold hand on them. Now can just about hold hand on them not scalding.

Note also I read in the instructions for fhe domestic BEM boiler stat should go up a little. So I did put my boiler stat up one notch earlier when fitting the Vector BEM.

I will see how it does with downstairs for a number of hours tomorrow. If results are the same I'd say this appears to be working very well to be fair!

 

[JC22024]

Actually the upstairs radiators are scalding hot still Just tried a few of them again I forgot I was trying to get the 10c on the first one last night so it's throttled down a bit.

 

[John.g]

Think I may have posted this previously.

 

[John.g]

Actually the upstairs radiators are scalding hot still Just tried a few of them again I forgot I was trying to get the 10c on the first one last night so it's throttled down a bit.

Your system, if it interrupts the switched live must mean that the circ pump is also stopped? and when the relay recloses, the circ pump will restart and then burner will fire up as required?

 

[JC22024]

Your system, if it interrupts the switched live must mean that the circ pump is also stopped? and when the relay recloses, the circ pump will restart and then burner will fire up as required?

My system is wired like this:

Programmer (just perm on now)
2no room stats independent time and temperature control.
2no zone valves.
The zone valve switching is 240v and powers both the burner and circulation pump.

Therefore when heating is being called the pump is on all the time. As is the boiler thermostat.

Remember I have the simple "dumb" silver boiler house model. Only has stat on it no other controls or interfaces.

The difference now is this device goes in between the boiler stat and burner. And appears to be reducing the burner run time during normal operation. I did strongly suspect the boiler stat was trying too hard I guess this proves it.

Older photo

 

[John.g]

OK so pump keeps running "as normal" so if the cycle times are reduced, then this should mean that the boiler has to fire for longer during during the cycle which is good, but the rads still have to emit the exact same kw to maintain a constant room temperature but how is this achieved as the mean rad temperature has to fall when this happens?.. For example with boiler cycling your flow/return temps of 70.4/61.7C gives a mean rad temperature of 66.1C and if the heating demand is 13kw then the boiler will have a 50% firing duty, so fairly equal on/off times, this ratio will increase the longer the burner is prevented from firing so hard not to envisage the mean rad temperature not falling with reduced output/cooler rooms.
Where it can work pretty well IMO is where all the TRVs are throttled in, these would then open further and help maintain a constant mean temperature?.

 

[John.g]

Browsing through a few posts in Automated Home re Evohome, it certainly seems that it cycles the boiler by turning the boiler switched live on/off, the boiler still has a permanent live so will do a normal pump overrun (where installed, mostly on gas boilers) each time the boiler shuts down.

 

[JC22024]

OK so pump keeps running "as normal" so if the cycle times are reduced, then this should mean that the boiler has to fire for longer during during the cycle which is good, but the rads still have to emit the exact same kw to maintain a constant room temperature but how is this achieved as the mean rad temperature has to fall when this happens?.. For example with boiler cycling your flow/return temps of 70.4/61.7C gives a mean rad temperature of 66.1C and if the heating demand is 13kw then the boiler will have a 50% firing duty, so fairly equal on/off times, this ratio will increase the longer the burner is prevented from firing so hard not to envisage the mean rad temperature not falling with reduced output/cooler rooms.
Where it can work pretty well IMO is where all the TRVs are throttled in, these would then open further and help maintain a constant mean temperature?.

Browsing through a few posts in Automated Home re Evohome, it certainly seems that it cycles the boiler by turning the boiler switched live on/off, the boiler still has a permanent live so will do a normal pump overrun (where installed, mostly on gas boilers) each time the boiler shuts down.

Yes fair point on the impact on mean radiator temperature. Since it has a switch on it I could run tests to see actual difference. But in real terms I think it is very minimal. The boiler stat still does get fully satisfied and delivers the set temperature. It is the occilations in how the heat curve is delivered that differs. Some BEM instructions suggest setting up one notch to compensate the mean temperature slightly.

My heat was on a good part of yesterday. The Units it counts are in tens so I read the meter wrong yesterday. I thought it was counting 60 secs then hours. But I think the large numbers are actually hours and they are divided by 100 units.

Think it's showing 3 hours saving thus far. I did notice yesterday that the perm power is actually to be switched like the boiler stat incoming feed. Because when I started the heating yesterday it was not heating up due to the device still being powered from the last heating cycle. If it had pipe sensors it would have known but it didn't so I will change the power supply to where they must intend it to be the heating call feed and not perm power.

After a month of this one I will change to the other domestic manager with pipe stats and attach my own hour counters if they ever turn up. That way can see if having Delta sensors on boiler makes a BEM more effective which you would think it would!

 

[JC22024]

I also realised my Elco burner should be carrying out a post purge cycle. But it is not.

What I discovered on checking the boiler wiring diagrams is the the original installer, an Oftec engineer has used a 3 core wire from the boiler stat to the burner. And put in a link wire to the perm power connection to trick the burner into firing. AKA the burner should have a 4 core wire with permanent live supply.

I ordered all new heat resistant cabling and will re-do the boiler wiring completely to ensure it is correct. In the immediate I will give the boiler a perm supply today in order to allow it to shutdown properly each time.

I think the popping noises from the burner I mentioned before and thought I needed a Tigerloop for, are actually as a result of the boiler not shutting down correctly and having this cheat wire installed at present. aka the nozzle is dribbling oil out post shutdown.

 

[John.g]

Not sure about your particular model but I think that the post purge is optional and maybe selectable on some models.

 

[JC22024]

Not sure about your particular model but I think that the post purge is optional and maybe selectable on some models.

The Elco burner on mine can have either a 3pin or 4 pin connector plug. Mine is the 4 pin plug.

It says in wiring diagram that 4 pin versions must have perm power supply. This is for post purge function.

And if it is not there the burner will not fire as a safety precaution.

So the engineer had put in a bridge wire on the 3 core. So the boiler thinks all is OK and fires up but it dies out like a power cut and does not actually have the perm power feed it requires. Shoddy stuff.

Edit - they call it 4 pin annologue or 5 pin digital. Mine is 5 pin digital.

 

[John.g]

Post purging is interesting.

On the relatively large (50MW) oIl and gas fired boilers that I was very familiar with, we used oxygen analyzers for combustion control, normally 1.5% to 3%, depending on boiler output. Two oxygen analyzers were used. A post purge only occured if the boiler tripped on either flame failure or if both analyzers fell to 0.2% which meant combustion conditions was getting close to fuel rich conditions. If we requested a normal boiler stop, no post purge took place.

 

[JC22024]

Post purging is interesting.

On the relatively large (50MW) oIl and gas fired boilers that I was very familiar with, we used oxygen analyzers for combustion control, normally 1.5% to 3%, depending on boiler output. Two oxygen analyzers were used. A post purge only occured if the boiler tripped on either flame failure or if both analyzers fell to 0.2% which meant combustion conditions was getting close to fuel rich conditions. If we requested a normal boiler stop, no post purge took place.

I am not so much concerned about the gases etc with enabling post purge, more so the oil side to make sure the boiler is shutting down correctly each time. I think the oil popping issue may be related to that.

I gave the boiler a perm live tonight and it is now shutting down correctly. The post purge is about 15 seconds roughly. Will be interesting to see if the oil popping noise is gone tomorrow morning on first start up.

 

[John.g]

I can't see any difference in the oil pump solenoid operation with either no post or post purge, actually if you suspect fuel nozzle dribble, it can possibly dribble more with a post purge as the oil pump will also be driven for the 15 secs vs a few seconds on a no post purge as the fan runs down pretty fast as its being braked by the fuel pump, obviously you would/will investigate if you suspect the above.
I wonder why the need for a post purge if its not safety related, perhaps there are some increased emissions with this type of burner on a normal stop and the post purge clears them.

Not sure if I asked this previously, does a hydraulically operated damper shut off the fan air intake when boiler off?.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

The fan keeps going

 

[John.g]

The fan only runs for the post purge period and then stops, there will then be a updraft through the hot boiler with consequent heat losses. I know Firebird did have this damper because I replaced the seals in the hydraulic actuator (ram) for someone as it was leaking kerosene. The actuator was driven by oil from the fuel oil pump and would open almost immediately on fan run up and close by spring return when the fan stopped.

 

[JC22024]

I can't see any difference in the oil pump solenoid operation with either no post or post purge, actually if you suspect fuel nozzle dribble, it can possibly dribble more with a post purge as the oil pump will also be driven for the 15 secs vs a few seconds on a no post purge as the fan runs down pretty fast as its being braked by the fuel pump, obviously you would/will investigate if you suspect the above.
I wonder why the need for a post purge if its not safety related, perhaps there are some increased emissions with this type of burner on a normal stop and the post purge clears them.

Not sure if I asked this previously, does a hydraulically operated damper shut off the fan air intake when boiler off?.

The fan only runs for the post purge period and then stops, there will then be a updraft through the hot boiler with consequent heat losses. I know Firebird did have this damper because I replaced the seals in the hydraulic actuator (ram) for someone as it was leaking kerosene. The actuator was driven by oil from the fuel oil pump and would open almost immediately on fan run up and close by spring return when the fan stopped.

From what I have seen the post purge operates for closer to 10 seconds. THis just counds like the fan motor only running.

Didnt cure the popping noises. The popping only ever occurs for the first 10 - 15 seconds of running of the day. No other time. I will clean the pump's internal filter next.

Does post purge really make no difference(?) It didnt seem optional in the instructions but I know what you mean that there would be additional heat losses too. If I knew it made no actual difference could disable it again

 

[John.g]

The fuel pump is (or at least was) directly driven by the fan motor.
I might contact Firebird at their parental HQ here (Co Cork) and ask them a few questions.

 

[John.g]

A very experienced "oil" man thinks that it probably is a feature to help with the sooting that was a feature of the original enviromax/silver series of boilers and the post purge with the elco burner is more of a clean out of the combustion chamber after each cycle run. Also said the the air intake damper was a feature of the Riello 40 burner and Firebird no longer use the damper.

 

[JC22024]

A very experienced "oil" man thinks that it probably is a feature to help with the sooting that was a feature of the original enviromax/silver series of boilers and the post purge with the elco burner is more of a clean out of the combustion chamber after each cycle run. Also said the the air intake damper was a feature of the Riello 40 burner and Firebird no longer use the damper.

Got it, thanks for that makes sense. The Elco runs at 0ppm for the most part but all the same I'll leave it wired as intended from the factory. It only runs on for about 10 or 15 seconds at most. Nothing to worry about heat loss wise etc.

 

[JC22024]

An update on the Vector BEM

Whatever exactly the counters are counting the difference between them is indicating 16.27% so far. So I guess that's the saving in run time / oil very approximately. There are a number of factors at stake there including pre and post purge times but good to see a clear aparant difference with it installed.

I think i'll run it like that until this Saturday then go ahead and fit the other one with delta sensors and carry out Same test. I can borrow these same counters and wire in for a week and carry out pro rata approx yields.

 

[Ric2013]

Apologies for having skipped part of this thread, and if it turns out I'm repeating what others have said:

1. Possibly the boiler has a a maximum temperature drop and, if you throttle the flow to get a higher differential, it responds by cycling to try to reduce the differential down to below its maximum

2. Thinking about condensing. If the flow temperature is high and the return is below condensing, it makes sense that condensation will only form on that part of the heat exchanger that is coolest. So, if condensing starts below 2°M (M = a made-up temperature scale), say, and stops at 4°M, a boiler running at 4/2 will always condense well, whereas a boiler running at 6/2 will only give 2/3rds of the condensing capacity because 1/3 of the heat exchanger is likely to be above the dewpoint which is 4°M. So there is likely to be more to it than just the boiler return temperature. Not my original idea, but heard it somewhere and it makes sense (although probably a slight simplification of the actual physics at work).

 

[JC22024]

Apologies for having skipped part of this thread, and if it turns out I'm repeating what others have said:

1. Possibly the boiler has a a maximum temperature drop and, if you throttle the flow to get a higher differential, it responds by cycling to try to reduce the differential down to below its maximum

2. Thinking about condensing. If the flow temperature is high and the return is below condensing, it makes sense that condensation will only form on that part of the heat exchanger that is coolest. So, if condensing starts below 2°M (M = a made-up temperature scale), say, and stops at 4°M, a boiler running at 4/2 will always condense well, whereas a boiler running at 6/2 will only give 2/3rds of the condensing capacity because 1/3 of the heat exchanger is likely to be above the dewpoint which is 4°M. So there is likely to be more to it than just the boiler return temperature. Not my original idea, but heard it somewhere and it makes sense (although probably a slight simplification of the actual physics at work).

Thanks for that, I will still also try jetting the boiler down next size and see if it makes any difference to the ability to condense. The air flow is greatly reduced at the next nozzle size down so it most likely is kore efficient if it can heat the house with the smaller nozzle.

A quick video of the Vector going through the stages of stat off to economy then firing

 

[JC22024]

OK So I had an unexpected couple of hours free last night and went ahead and fitted the domestic digital BEM



Observations:

The way it is set up means it does need a perm power supply and also power from the call to stat supply. Not between the stat and burner like the other Vector unit.

This means I cannot do a direct comparison between the 2no readings. So I have added a counter to the burner. And a counter to the heating call wire. Which means I can record the same data between the 2x BEMs as long term tests. Not super accurate but as a pro rata comparison for any reduction in burn time ratio VS heat demand hours. (Aka there will be variables there to account for such as the heating times etc but I will leave the room thermostats programmed and not boost them.

Had this one on the upstairs zone tonight. It's operation is slightly different to the Vector unit.

This one calls the boiler. Then boiler fires if the boiler stat is calling and runs until the boiler stat is satisfied, fully up to temp. Then the BEM calculates heating load and goes into economy mode, interupting the power/ call wire to the boiler stat. Waiting longer than the Vector unit did between cycles. Down to 56.8c is what I just recorded before it fires up again and goes to full boiler stat temp again and so forth.

So it appears to be holding out alot longer than the Vector unit. Perhaps due to it monitoring the pipe temps.

Will see how it goes for the next while.

If it is any indicator of economy, before BEMs the boiler cycling was excessive. The flue pipe felt hot to the Touch at any time. With the Vector unit the flue felt warm. With this digital BEM the flue felt positively cold

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Any condense tho ?

 

[JC22024]

Any condense tho ?

I'll put the bottle back on tomorrow and see for sure. I think it looked like there were a few drops tonight but will need the bottle to test for sure. Very tempted to downsize the nozzle too sooner than later. 26kw is probably oversized for my house especially the upstairs zone which gets the most use.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Simple rad Calc will tell you all you need to know

 

[JC22024]

Simple rad Calc will tell you all you need to know

Yes I'll look into formulating that for both zones and posting. Some rads like the new mysons I'll find data for. Some of the 40 year old non Finned rads could be trickier to determine but I'll fully measure up and look for calculators

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Mins half the output for non convectors

 

[JC22024]

Update, I did go ahead and jet my boiler down to 0.5gph nozzle / 20kw with interesting results.....



With the BEM switched off / overrode and on the downstairs zone only the boiler ran for over an hour there and wouldn't reach stat temp of 70! Levelled off at about 62c flow 50c return and stayed there running full time it felt like.

About 10c outside also.

So I put on upstairs smaller zone now and will let it run tonight. I'd imagine it will be just fine for upstairs but for downstairs it's clear 26kw / 0.65 nozzle is the output needed so that will go back in tomorrow and that's the end of that! 26kw it is.

 

[John.g]

A 0.6 USGPM SHOULD GIVE ~ 21kw the 0.5 is probably only 16/17 kw

 

[JC22024]

A 0.6 USGPM SHOULD GIVE ~ 21kw the 0.5 is probably only 16/17 kw

Using Danfoss Nozzle Calc spreadsheet I got the following values based on specific Firebird settings:

0.5gph / 1.5kg/hr nozzle set at 9.8bar actual pump pressure consumes 1.66 kg/hr / 2.1L/Hr / 19.92kw
0.65gph / 1.95kg/hr nozzle set at 9.3bar actual pump pressure consumes 2.81 kg/hr / 2.66L/Hr / 25.23kw

I put it back to the 0.65 nozzle this evening. I also cleaned the pump filter (I think a faulty new paper oil filter element on my oil tank caused temporary contamination) and that appears to have cured the strange popping noises on first startup.

So I guess 25.23 x 92% efficient means roughly 23.2 kw to rads? It does heat either zone well like this.

 

[JC22024]

I have had the digital BEM connected for a few days and it ain't no good. It keeps the boiler temps down all the time. Heat was on there today first run and it doesn't even let it get fully up to temp.

The Vector one was working well and crucially for me was not adversely impacting the comfort in my house. The heat felt normal as it allowed the boiler stat to fully satisfy.

So Vector will be wired in permanently today and the boiler will stay as 26kw.

Only things left is to get the rads all balanced and see what delta drop there is. I probably will not be able to get this boiler to produce condensate in my setup but I'll try that one last time also just for completeness of this thread

 

[Chuck]

I have had the digital BEM connected for a few days and it ain't no good. It keeps the boiler temps down all the time.

In my opinion, if you have a reasonably modern and correctly commissioned boiler there is little point in adding a third-party 'magic box' controller to a domestic system. Although they might have achieved the claimed savings years ago when boilers were controlled by a single thermostat, these days domestic boilers are already monitoring and controlling based a range of operating variables including flow and return temperature and have been optimised by the manufacturer. If there were "30% energy savings" to be made Worcester, Vaillant, et al. would have already modified their control strategy accordingly.

 

[JC22024]

In my opinion, if you have a reasonably modern and correctly commissioned boiler there is little point in adding a third-party 'magic box' controller to a domestic system. Although they might have achieved the claimed savings years ago when boilers were controlled by a single thermostat, these days domestic boilers are already monitoring and controlling based a range of operating variables including flow and return temperature and have been optimised by the manufacturer. If there were "30% energy savings" to be made Worcester, Vaillant, et al. would have already modified their control strategy accordingly.

Did you read this thread?

Did you look at my boiler?

It only has a stat on it NO other controls, sensors or compensations. A BEM in my case makes perfect sense.

But for modern gas boilers you are correct. It appears oil boilers have been left behind in heating advances.

 

[JC22024]

The Vector BEM unit is now permanently wired in. I used 4 core heat resistant flex. Heating call wires go to boiler stat. (Including a wire from the call positive passing through the thermostat housing).

After the stat these then go through to the Vector. It gets Earth, Call positive, stat switched positive out and neutral. Then on to the burner which means the burner also does post purge cycle except on final shutdown. I prefer the boiler to be completely isolated when turned off.



I like the Vector BEM in particular because it let's the boiler stat fully satisfy before economising. And it's got simple counters showing it is

 

[SJB060685]

I should have logged on sooner. There’s too many comments for me to scroll through everything and know what the issue/issues were but seems like an interesting thread from what little I have read.

 

[JC22024]

The Vector BEM is continuing to work very well. House feels warm and comfortable no discernible difference.

It appears to average about 15% saving downstairs zone and about 18-20% on upstairs zone which is very good in my books!!



I order my heating oil online so will be able to build up records of the last few years consumption. But so far this set up appears vastly more efficient than my old boiler. (Which you would expect I guess!)

31st Dec oil tank level:



Tonight:





My last oil order was on 30/10/21 for 900L. Looks like there is about 600 / 700L ish still in the tank. Going by oil orders for last 3x winters typically I would use 1900L per winter. With first order in Oct and last in Feb / March.

Looks like this year's 900L may just last the season. Will be interesting to see!

 

[SJB060685]

So what is this BEM controller doing exactly? An oil burner technician by trade but not familiar with the unit you mention in all honesty.

 

[JC22024]

So what is this BEM controller doing exactly? An oil burner technician by trade but not familiar with the unit you mention in all honesty.

My boiler has the bog standard stat on it. It was cycling quite a lot before the BEM. Off and on too frequently almost.

The BEM monitors the boilers firing cycles and extends them. What I like about this one in particular is that it does not interfere with the set thermostat temperature on the boiler. It let's the stat call until fully satisfied. Then when it would normally be quick to fire up again at say 5c drop in temp the stat calls but the BEM goes into economy mode and holds it back a half minute or so longer before letting it fire. Therefore less bouler cycling per hour. So less pre and post purge cycles out the flue as well.

Energy Management Solutions | Vector Group

I tested another smart BEM with delta sensors too and it was crap. It was holding the boiler back from reaching stat temperature unlike how this Vector unit operates.

I also like the simple Heating and Burn counters so you know it is doing its job.

 

[SJB060685]

Thanks for the description. You’re clearly quite well informed as a homeowner . Another thing it’s good for is as you mentioned it governs the stop/start cycling. Burners are happy running for long periods of time and ideally as cool as possible. What is not good for them is this stop start cycling. It puts a lot of wear and tear on burner components will need replacing more frequently.

 

[JC22024]

Thanks for the description. You’re clearly quite well informed as a homeowner . Another thing it’s good for is as you mentioned it governs the stop/start cycling. Burners are happy running for long periods of time and ideally as cool as possible. What is not good for them is this stop start cycling. It puts a lot of wear and tear on burner components will need replacing more frequently.

Thanks for that and yes good point on less wear and tear also!

I knew the upstairs zone was gaining more on the BEM. (I presume because the 26kw is oversized for upstairs zone and perfectly sized for larger downstairs zone)

So tonight I checked the BEM counters before and after the upstairs ran for just over 2 hours. The BEM saving in Burn time tonight was 26.7%.

That is pretty significant saving and the heating feels totally normal inside, quit early as it satisfied the room thermostat also. It was holding back the burner for up to a minute extra each cycle near the end of the 2 hours. Definitely pleased with how that is working!