Position of boiler flue in relation to velux window, advice pleas

[Debra Beagle]

Thank You for your reply and the additional photo Debra,

All is now clear regarding the orientation of your property and the neighbours extension.

As I am sure that You are aware the reason why there are `minimum clearances` to a Property Boundary is in case someone erects a Building / Structure close to the boundary - as has been done with your Neighbour`s extension.

In theory adhering to the minimum distance to the boundary when there is no Building / Structure present ensures that a property owner is protected in the event that the neighbour does build something adjacent to the boundary.

In your case because of the design / dimensions of the Neighbour`s extension immediately adjacent to your Boiler Flue there is a slight possibility that Flue gasses / Flue Plume could be blown enter the Extension Roof space / Loft Room via the open Velux window.

There is also the possibility that the slightly acidic water vapour from the Flue Plume could stain the extension Brickwork / guttering facia board or Roof tiles.

The possible staining of parts of the extension is something that would not really have been taken into consideration because any structure immediately adjacent to a Condensing Boiler Flue could get stained by the Plume - but it may cause a complaint in future if it can be seen by your Neighbour ?

The Architect / Designer / Builder of your Neighbour`s extension have not taken into consideration the proximity / existence of your Home`s Boiler Flue when designing the extension regarding the Velux window location.

My advice would be to try again to get a visit from one of your Local Authority Building Control Officers - if you cannot get them involved write to Gas Safe asking for an Inspector to visit your property - if they decline stating that the situation is `not within their remit` contact the HSE and report the fact that neither the LABC or Gas Safe will inspect the situation.

Tell them you have had conflicting opinions from a few Gas Safe registered Gas Engineers / Gas Installers and you cannot afford to keep paying Engineers who you find will not commit their findings in writing which is why you wanted to involve a Gas Safe Inspector.

However now that it seems you simply cannot get a definitive answer in writing you are worried about the Gas Safety aspect of the possibility that under certain wind conditions `Products of Combustion` would be able to enter the Loft Room Velux window.

Unfortunately I am guessing that the HSE would probably refer you back to engaging a Gas Safe registered Gas Engineer / Gas Installer - but it is worth a couple of phone calls / a few Emails.

The problem with that is that an Engineer`s visit obviously costs money and even if you had the imaginary facility to have 3 or 4 Engineers visit free of charge they might NOT all agree a definitive answer.

Even with very experienced / very knowledgeable Engineers `human nature` / `self preservation` dictates that some might prefer to state that the proximity of the Flue terminal to the Velux window is definitely a Safety issue to cover themselves in case of a future problem.

Sorry that I / We cannot be more helpful.

If You do get a written definitive answer please let Us know with an update on here.

Chris

Thankyou Chris and all other members for your comments. I will definitely take your suggestion into consideration Chris

 

[Debra Beagle]

Hi, had a conversation with private building inspector today. He has told me that he sees no problem with the window in position to the flue and is going to pass the extension off. Again he stated that the diagram from the planning portal didn’t relate because it was a vertical flue and not horizontal like ours, again I defined the word flue. He, for some reason again, pointed out that the flue is closer to our window than the neighbouring velux and then it didn’t really relate to any regulations because the flue is on our side of the party wall. Surely at the if the gases are emitted within the shaded area of the diagram in post 11 it wouldn’t really matter what the flue was attached to the emissions are still being released within this forbidden area.
He basically said that we were only bothered because he knows that in the future there won’t be a gas fitter willing to site a boiler in the same place. He’s probably right but why would that be........is it because the distance between flue and window is a concern? Fortunately our boiler is serviced regularly and could potentially be ok for another 10 years.......so is he saying that it is not a problem now and we can overlook any dangers and keep our fingers crossed until we move our boiler in 10 years time hoping that no accidents occur.
Was also told that no point in contacting gas safe because they’re not interested cos they don’t think it’s important!
Asked him to put in writing to us that we had made him aware of our concerns that he considered it safe but said he would not as his concern was the safe structure of the build only.
He said to that contacting theHSE and CIC would be a waste of time because they won’t be interested. I am totally astounded with the situation.

 

[Riley]

Sadly a building inspector is unlikely to know the finer points of gas safety. I would call his bluff and contact the HSE if they aren’t bothered then I would insist on something in writing to that affect and go about your normal life. He clearly doesn’t understand gas safety as a vertical flue positioned correctly would nullify all of these issues and allow you to put anew boiler there when the time comes

 

[quality]

We did some leak dispersion modeling / tests where vapors were released to atmosphere and we were quite surprised at how much the released vapors were diluted (with moisture) when emitted to fresh air. I know this doesn't help your situation. But thought I would comment

 

[Debra Beagle]

I m totally flummoxed with the idea that I will,in the future, potentially have to move my boiler because it will be seen as incorrect and a potential danger due to the siting of this window but up until that time ( while surely it is still a potential danger) nobody gives a damn.

 

[quality]

You wouldn't have to move your boiler just a replacement with a vertical flue would be fine. It would be interesting to measure surrounding atmosphere to enable the facts to be established

 

[Aire]

He won't put it writing because he knows he's not qualified to answer the question. And your window been closer to the flue is irrelevant as it's a different scenario to the velux. I still believe you should send the photos to ideal. If they say it's fine, it's fine, if they say it's wrong it's wrong and then you will at least have something in writing to get gas safe to take notice.

 

[Debra Beagle]

He won't put it writing because he knows he's not qualified to answer the question. And your window been closer to the flue is irrelevant as it's a different scenario to the velux. I still believe you should send the photos to ideal. If they say it's fine, it's fine, if they say it's wrong it's wrong and then you will at least have something in writing to get gas safe to take notice.

Hi Craig, photos have been sent this afternoon, awaiting response

 

[Debra Beagle]

Hi, just a question to you all, “how many of you would fit a new boiler in the same place if the scenario stays the same......like for like, without any fancy extensions? Just curiosity, yes or no will be adequate thank you.

 

[Riley]

No but there is also the logistical nightmare of going over your conservatory. Vertical flue for me

 

[Aire]

Off the top of my head I would say no, but I would also ask the manufacturer if it was ok before I looked at alternatives.

 

[Riley]

I assume you’ve not heard from manufacturers

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I wouldn’t too close would look at moving the flue / different terminal

 

[Debra Beagle]

I assume you’ve not heard from manufacturers

I assume you’ve not heard from manufacturers

Still waiting

 

[Brambles]

A warning, don't work on the basis that whatever was there first has the right to remain there. That is rarely upheld if a case goes to Court. The is a lot of case law in this area particularly with respect to buried pipes and cables that are frustrating new development.

My advice, is you have an easy fix to relocate the flue terminal do so.

You should also be mindful, that you have demonstrated that you knew or thought that this was a problem. If anything unfortunate happens, the question could be asked as to why you did not amend your terminal position.

 

[Debra Beagle]

A warning, don't work on the basis that whatever was there first has the right to remain there. That is rarely upheld if a case goes to Court. The is a lot of case law in this area particularly with respect to buried pipes and cables that are frustrating new development.

My advice, is you have an easy fix to relocate the flue terminal do so.

You should also be mindful, that you have demonstrated that you knew or thought that this was a problem. If anything unfortunate happens, the question could be asked as to why you did not amend your terminal position.

Don’t worry I’m not planning on replacing the boiler as it’s working fine. It’s staying where it is and how it is at the moment

 

[Riley]

I think what he was saying was as you are aware there is a potential problem it’s probably not going to be in your best interest to ignore it. I realise at present you aren’t it’s one of those that if the worst happened and you ended up in court I genuinely couldn’t tell you which way it would go. There have been well covered events where a sealed window has been exchanged for an opening one and people have died of carbon monoxide poisoning and the powers that be have still come back on the installer for not predicting the future.

 

[Debra Beagle]

I think what he was saying was as you are aware there is a potential problem it’s probably not going to be in your best interest to ignore it. I realise at present you aren’t it’s one of those that if the worst happened and you ended up in court I genuinely couldn’t tell you which way it would go. There have been well covered events where a sealed window has been exchanged for an opening one and people have died of carbon monoxide poisoning and the powers that be have still come back on the installer for not predicting the future.

Don’t worry we are not ignoring it either.

 

[Riley]

Good. No offence meant it’s just such a terribly grey area

 

[Debra Beagle]

Good. No offence meant it’s just such a terribly grey area

No offence taken.......thank you for all of the advice

 

[Debra Beagle]

Update so far;
Sent an email to the private building inspector to basically have some hard evidence that I have informed him of our concerns regarding proximity of window to flue. Also to confirm that I was right in believing that he was going to pass the extension off without any concerns that there was any breach of regulations, being either health and safety or building, and no danger to life...........he passed the query onto the top dog.
In the meantime Ideal have replied by email,to the photos sent, to comment that from the pictures the window appears to have been fitted to close to the flue....... email forwarded to BI.
It’ll be interesting to see if building inspector communicates in any way shape or form with gas safe......

 

[Riley]

I’d say it’s extremely unlikely that BI will talk to Gas Safe

 

[Aire]

Thanks for the update, will be interesting to now see what the building inspector comes back with.
The problem is solvable with a vertical flue but it comes down to who pays.

 

[Marc Bowers]

The problem is also solved by moving the velux!

 

[Debra Beagle]

Marc Bowers thumbs up to your comment

 

[Riley]

Agreed however we still don’t have official confirmation that the flue is dangerous

 

[Debra Beagle]

Hi, we’ve nearly got an answer to this problem and will update as soon as verified, however just a question for you all.......if able to reach the flue how many of you would work on the boiler if the velux window was permanently fixed?

 

[Brambles]

I don’t think that the regulations GS(IU)R differentiate whether or not the window can be opened. The flue terminal must be a minimum distance away from the window.

 

[Aire]

I don’t think that the regulations GS(IU)R differentiate whether or not the window can be opened. The flue terminal must be a minimum distance away from the window.

I always believed it to be an openable window where the minimum measurement applied

 

[Brambles]

Craig,

You are indeed correct.

I need to do more reading!!

 

[Scott_D]

I always believed it to be an openable window where the minimum measurement applied

I dont think thats correct
What if someone gets the window changed to an opening window?
I think someone died beacuse of similar and a gas fitter went to prison

 

[Aire]

I dont think thats correct
What if someone gets the window changed to an opening window?
I think someone dies beacuse of similar and a gas fitter went to prion

If someone gets the window changed then it's up to whoever changes the window to seek professional advise to make sure what they are doing is safe.

 

[Scott_D]

If someone gets the window changed then it's up to whoever changes the window to seek professional advise to make sure what they are doing is safe.

But if the homeowner and window fitter are not gas safe and dont see the potential problem

 

[Aire]

But if the homeowner and window fitter are not gas safe and dont see the potential problem

But ignorance of the homeowner/windowfitter is not the engineers fault. Regs regarding flue positions relates to openings, a solid window with no trickle vents is not classed as an opening. Saying the homeowner may change the window to openable in the future is no different to saying the homeowner may put a conservatory there in future.

 

[Scott_D]

But ignorance of the homeowner/windowfitter is not the engineers fault. Regs regarding flue positions relates to openings, a solid window with no trickle vents is not classed as an opening. Saying the homeowner may change the window to openable in the future is no different to saying the homeowner may put a conservatory there in future.

And how many conservatories do you see encroaching on flues or with opening windows too close
I was always told an opening means opening in the fabric of the building not an opening window

 

[Sharp Point]

And how many conservatories do you see encroaching on flues or with opening windows too close
I was always told an opening means opening in the fabric of the building not an opening window

Scott, what do you think an opening window is?
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I dont think thats correct
What if someone gets the window changed to an opening window?
I think someone died beacuse of similar and a gas fitter went to prison

That’s like saying the flue is near a plain brick wall, but in the future someone puts a door in.

 

[Scott_D]

Scott, what do you think an opening window is?
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That’s like saying the flue is near a plain brick wall, but in the future someone puts a door in.

That would involve building control who should flag it up

 

[Sharp Point]

That would involve building control who should flag it up

And how many people actually inform BC of intentional work?
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My take on an opening into the fabric into the building is exactly as it says.... a passage from external into internal airspace, whether that’s into habitual rooms or not.

 

[Aire]

Seems we are both right, to clarify I looked through part J of the building regs, it does state than an opening is referred to as, e.g. openable window, air bricks, vents etc. But it also states that no flue outlet shall be positioned within 150mm of an opening in the fabric of the building e.g a window frame. So 300mm for openable window, and 150mm for a fixed window.

 

[Scott_D]

Seems we are both right, to clarify I looked through part J of the building regs, it does state than an opening is referred to as an opening, e.g. openable window, air bricks, vents etc. But it also states that no flue outlet shall be positioned within 150mm of an opening in the fabric of the building e.g a window frame. So 300mm for openable window, and 150mm for a fixed window.

Good to get some clarification

 

[Aire]

I would say though that the 150mm rule to openings in the fabric are more down to structual factors instead of flue gasses.

 

[firemant]

Precisely WHEN was the boiler fitted? The 300mm rule has been around for around 15 years, but someone could confirm the date. If the boiler is less than, say, 10 years, the problem IS yours. Having said that, it is an offence for a builder to carry out work that makes a gas installation unsafe. They should have approached you before starting the work. I would be writing to the builder by recorded delivery, and sending a copy by email to prove that you have tried to start discussions. I would also RIDDOR the builder, but am not sure if a member of public can. Finally write to the HSE, with the pictures and diagram of clearances required. Bear in mind that this could all result in you having to move the flue, but I get the feeling that you know that. Ultimately, a compromise may be sought.

Is the house occupied - what do the tenants or owners say?
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Can’t Edit ? I now notice that you have previously mentioned neighbours

What is the boiler make and model.
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[Debra Beagle]

Precisely WHEN was the boiler fitted? The 300mm rule has been around for around 15 years, but someone could confirm the date. If the boiler is less than, say, 10 years, the problem IS yours. Having said that, it is an offence for a builder to carry out work that makes a gas installation unsafe. They should have approached you before starting the work. I would be writing to the builder by recorded delivery, and sending a copy by email to prove that you have tried to start discussions. I would also RIDDOR the builder, but am not sure if a member of public can. Finally write to the HSE, with the pictures and diagram of clearances required. Bear in mind that this could all result in you having to move the flue, but I get the feeling that you know that. Ultimately, a compromise may be sought.

Is the house occupied - what do the tenants or owners say?
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Can’t Edit ? I now notice that you have previously mentioned neighbours

What is the boiler make and model.
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Sorry for my ignorance but why is the problem ours?

 

[Debra Beagle]

So guys, how many of you would work on the boiler if the window was screwed shut?

This is something that I received from a gentleman that works for Gas Safe.

 

[Sharp Point]

So guys, how many of you would work on the boiler if the window was screwed shut?
View attachment 40032
This is something that I received from a gentleman that works for Gas Safe.

I interpret that as altering the premises that could make THE gas appliance unsafe and not the premise.
And with all due respect Debra, I can’t helieve that you’re still consuming yourself with this, do yourself a big favour and just get a vertical flue installed..... draw a line underneath and get on with your life. Tomorrow’s another day.

 

[Chuck]

Deleted - I was just repeating what I said in a previous post.

A mod should lock this thread, it's become a bit of a waste of time.

 

[Debra Beagle]

Chuck,
Just for your information concerning your previous deleted statement, our flue does not terminate over their boundary , our flue was fitted in accordance to gas safe regulations and approved by the boiler suppliers at the time of installation. it is the builder that has situated an opening roof window going against building regs planning portal part j.
Also the summary of regulation 8 shown above is states that it is against regulations to alter a building in which a gas installed which could compromise gas safety

 

[Chuck]

Just for your information concerning your previous deleted statement, our flue does not terminate over their boundary , our flue was fitted in accordance to gas safe regulations and approved by the boiler suppliers at the time of installation...

Just for your information, none of this is relevant to your actual problem, which is with a piece of tort law called "Land Trespass". Briefly, if your fumes from your flue cross the boundary and interfere with your neighbour's enjoyment of their property then you are at fault unless you have something called an easement permitting your activity, which is unlikely.

You've already admitted you're causing a nuisance by warning your neighbour (see your previous posts) that your fumes maybe entering their property and causing a hazard. At some point, probably when they have difficulty selling their house because of your flue, you are going to get sued. At that point you are going to really regret not spending the few hundred quid it will cost you now to have your flue modified. You may think that plumbers are expensive but that's only because you haven't seen what a barrister charges to tell you you have got no case and need to settle.

I've seen how a very similar case played out in practice. It did not end well for the person in your position, who was just as sure as you that they were in the right.

My advice is to stop getting legal advice from gas fitters and builders and find yourself a lawyer who knows about land trespass and tort.

 

[Brambles]

Debora

These issues are never clear cut. In my view the risk you have hanging over your head, is if your boiler and the new window combine in a series of events that results in someone being poisoned by CO.

In those circumstances, you are at risk of of either being held liable in full, or more likely in “parasitic secondary liability”i.e. you knew about it, but did nothing to eliminate or mittigate the potential danger.

The evidence that you knew about the issue is already in the public domain.

The cost of resolving the issue with your boiler, is probably about the same as seeking the advice of a solicitor.

If you want to recover your costs, give your neighbour an ultimatum to fix the problem. If they don’t, then undertake the work, seek to recover the cost, if they don’t pay, then go to the Small Claims Court to recover your cost as a debt.

You are very lucky that you have a situation, where the solution is completely within your hands to resolve. English Court’s generally are very unpredictable in outcome (and costly) when it comes to resolving neighbourly disputes.

Life is not always fair, you have the moral high ground, don’t loose that position

 

[Sharp Point]

Also the summary of regulation 8 shown above is states that it is against regulations to alter a building in which a gas installed which could compromise gas safety

Debra, you’ve interpreted regulation totally wrong. It’s stating altering the premise/ building in which a gas fitting is housed, to not compromise the fittings safety.