Over charging.

[desrob]

Bit harsh peteheat. implying i have no pride in trade or self mate. its all new to me. the only thing i lack is knowledge. This is the reason i posted the question and why the group is here is it not. i want to be the best i can and take pride in my work and myself. I'm guilty of being too soft with people by nature and going low on price but as i'm just starting out i want that to stop. i've studied hard this last two years and will continue to do so while i am doing the job. and its that realisation when i'm stood there talking to a customer who wants it for peanuts that promted the question. I also believe that offering silly prices shows a lack of respect to the likes of you guys who have studied and worked hard.

what qualification have you gained in two year,and is this a side line or like many are we playing the system,the reason i ask is because your knowledge is limited so god knows what you were studying and your prices to me seem to be just a token gesture

 

[hunterseye]

Desrob you obviously dont condone anyone trying to better themselves and try to provide for a young family. I'm sure when you started out you never had to ask questions but for me i like to ask questions. and for the most part i get supportive informative answers. i've offered like many to work for free with plumbers but no one is willing to. should i sit back and let my college work go to waste or should i throw myself in at the deep end. apologies i dont come up to your obviously high standard.

 

[850Rick]

Desrob you obviously dont condone anyone trying to better themselves and try to provide for a young family. I'm sure when you started out you never had to ask questions but for me i like to ask questions. and for the most part i get supportive informative answers. i've offered like many to work for free with plumbers but no one is willing to. should i sit back and let my college work go to waste or should i throw myself in at the deep end. apologies i dont come up to your obviously high standard.

Everyone has to start some where

 

[hunterseye]

Everyone has to start some where

exactly rick, and i don't see why anyone should be made to feel inferior for being the bottom end of the scale and asking questions.

 

[850Rick]

exactly rick, and i don't see why anyone should be made to feel inferior for being the bottom end of the scale and asking questions.

Never be affraid of asking,doesnt matter how stupid it is.Getting it wrong can be costly

 

[Dannyparty92]

Iv studied two years for my 6129 qulification spend well over £1500 on tools and now looking into buying a van am I going to stop what I enjoy doing just because I haven't got an NVQ? No. Its so hard to gain an apprenticeship at the moment but I enjoy plumbing so that isn't going to stop me .

 

[850Rick]

Iv studied two years for my 6129 qulification spend well over £1500 on tools and now looking into buying a van am I going to stop what I enjoy doing just because I haven't got an NVQ? No. Its so hard to gain an apprenticeship at the moment but I enjoy plumbing so that isn't going to stop me .

City and guilds and the nvq are the same.The only difference is the nvq is done on site and city and guilds is done in the class room.If your confident at what you do you wont have a problem.They are stopping this now though so soon you will have to be in the trade to do this.

 

[Dannyparty92]

What do you mean? You will need an NVQ? To practise plumbing?

 

[desrob]

the tec cert gang! your numbers are large..... i feel intimidated

 

[hunterseye]

You only require nvq on new builds i think so you need both parts to be "industry recognised". I may be wrong.

 

[Dannyparty92]

I thought there are currently NO legisation in plumbing apart from the obvious i.e Gas safe OFTEC and unvented?

 

[LegionellaSlave]

You young plumbers should get into burglary and drugs :bomb:

The money's much better :shame:

 

[Koogatubac]

I thought there are currently NO legisation in plumbing apart from the obvious i.e Gas safe OFTEC and unvented?

You not heard of the water regulations?? Unvented hot water??

 

[hunterseye]

I'm 32 with a house and young family mate. my days of drugs and stealing are long gone. we all have to mature like a fine wine at some point lol.

 

[peteheat]

I'm 32 with a house and young family mate. my days of drugs and stealing are long gone. we all have to mature like a fine wine at some point lol.

I fully agree everyone has to learn, some are destined to be tradesmen other are destined to be businessmen, it's worth bearing in mind that a Ltd. company does not need any qualifications in fact the directors of some of the biggest service providers in this industry are accountants.

I suggest that young men starting out would do a lot worse than employing a retired plumber, kind of mentor / instructor, the combination of the wise old head and the young energetic tradesman could be winning combination.

A couple of things to note, there is no such thing as a silly question only the one you didn't ask, as for qualifications we graduate from the college of life in our last moments on this earth so never be afraid to continue learning, finally remember any small job you do includes traveling to and from the job don't forget to charge that out as well as the hour you spend on the job.

Have fun.

 

[tamz]

Desrob you obviously dont condone anyone trying to better themselves and try to provide for a young family.

I wouldn't like to be starting out in this game now to do that.

Iv studied two years for my 6129 qulification spend well over £1500 on tools and now looking into buying a van am I going to stop what I enjoy doing just because I haven't got an NVQ? No. Its so hard to gain an apprenticeship at the moment but I enjoy plumbing so that isn't going to stop me .

I've studied for 35 years to gain just about every trade related qualification out there and others, spent well over 50k on tools, spent over 100k on vans and i stopped enjoying it years ago. I don't have an NVQ either :smile:

we all have to mature like a fine wine at some point lol.

It is not quite like fine wine as you'll find out in about 20 years when the pain kicks in.

 

[850Rick]

What do you mean? You will need an NVQ? To practise plumbing?

You dont need an NVQ to do plumbing.Your city and guilds is plenty enough,Imo this NVQ is a money making scheme.College wanted my 1500 pound to sit in the class room and a further 1500 to do NVQ that would include all on site visits.I no a few people that are doing NVQs and dont actually have a placement

 

[850Rick]

You only require nvq on new builds i think so you need both parts to be "industry recognised". I may be wrong.

Your are wrong on both accounts,we have had this arguement in college with the tutors many a time.NVQ is just proof of competence,City and Guilds is recognised by employers all over the world,this has always been a grey area in plumbing,like whos quals is better etc.Its a complete load of Shi*e.Every one is doing the same thing at the end of the day.Even if you only have tec cert you can still do Gas and water regs.

 

[850Rick]

You only require nvq on new builds i think so you need both parts to be "industry recognised". I may be wrong.

I dont want to sound rude mate but i would do a bit more digging.You can do alot more than you think

 

[850Rick]

I fully agree everyone has to learn, some are destined to be tradesmen other are destined to be businessmen, it's worth bearing in mind that a Ltd. company does not need any qualifications in fact the directors of some of the biggest service providers in this industry are accountants.

I suggest that young men starting out would do a lot worse than employing a retired plumber, kind of mentor / instructor, the combination of the wise old head and the young energetic tradesman could be winning combination.

A couple of things to note, there is no such thing as a silly question only the one you didn't ask, as for qualifications we graduate from the college of life in our last moments on this earth so never be afraid to continue learning, finally remember any small job you do includes traveling to and from the job don't forget to charge that out as well as the hour you spend on the job.

Have fun.

I like this and this is a very mature answer.I would do the same and hired a good experienced plumber if i was busy.We should be here to help each other out

 

[WaterTight]

He could show you what a wetvac looks like!

I kid... I kid...:wink5:

 

[WaterTight]

I've studied for 35 years to gain just about every trade related qualification out there and others, spent well over 50k on tools, spent over 100k on vans and i stopped enjoying it years ago.

Out of interest Tamz how long into the 35 years did you enjoy it for? It must have been a while unless you've been willingly doing a job you don't like for decades.

 

[petercj]

You dont need an NVQ to do plumbing.Your city and guilds is plenty enough,Imo this NVQ is a money making scheme.College wanted my 1500 pound to sit in the class room and a further 1500 to do NVQ that would include all on site visits.I no a few people that are doing NVQs and dont actually have a placement

The NVQ system was introduced so that people could get on the job training and qualifications using workplace assessors.

C&Gs being done in college - traditionally being combined with full-time work, i.e. 1 day in college & 4 days at work.

Many FE colleges got into NVQ training, and they were misusing the qualification because there was no real on the job work involved, and they were told they had to stop abusing the system.

The politics of the NVQ system was about reducing the State's responsibility for training people, and turning it over to private enterprise.

What the politicians grossly underestimated was that it takes time to train people, and that training requires not only the necessary craft skills, but also skills in training, i.e. the ability to communicate relevant information, and the ability to communicate and relate at a level that enables the trainee to feedback on what they have learned and where the grey areas are. Telling people where they've gone wrong is one thing, being able to analyse why they've got it wrong, and feedback in a constructive way is another.

A good tradesman needs to know what he needs to know, and the skills to apply such knowledge to be good at his job. But if you ask him why he does what he does, and to explain what he does in great detail, he may not always know, i.e. he may say that he does it that way because that's how he was trained. Also, being good at what you do doesn't necessarily mean that you have the patients or the inclination to pass such skills on.

Turning over training to the private sector has generally been a failure, even during the more prosperous years.

The tried and tested model is to put people into jobs where they get input from FE colleges combined with support and some supervision when on the job.

We live in a country where lots of people don't have homes, and we have lots of people who would jump at the chance of learning construction skills, plus we have an increasing number of people who have construction skills but lack work, so the obvious thing is to start building homes for the people who need them using the people who have the skills, and those that want to learn, to get the system going again.

However, because the college boys who are running this country have been told by their Thatcherite mentors that such a plan is ideologically unsound, it doesn't happen!

 

[850Rick]

The NVQ system was introduced so that people could get on the job training and qualifications using workplace assessors.

C&Gs being done in college - traditionally being combined with full-time work, i.e. 1 day in college & 4 days at work.

Many FE colleges got into NVQ training, and they were misusing the qualification because there was no real on the job work involved, and they were told they had to stop abusing the system.

The politics of the NVQ system was about reducing the State's responsibility for training people, and turning it over to private enterprise.

What the politicians grossly underestimated was that it takes time to train people, and that training requires not only the necessary craft skills, but also skills in training, i.e. the ability to communicate relevant information, and the ability to communicate and relate at a level that enables the trainee to feedback on what they have learned and where the grey areas are. Telling people where they've gone wrong is one thing, being able to analyse why they've got it wrong, and feedback in a constructive way is another.

A good tradesman needs to know what he needs to know, and the skills to apply such knowledge to be good at his job. But if you ask him why he does what he does, and to explain what he does in great detail, he may not always know, i.e. he may say that he does it that way because that's how he was trained. Also, being good at what you do doesn't necessarily mean that you have the patients or the inclination to pass such skills on.

Turning over training to the private sector has generally been a failure, even during the more prosperous years.

The tried and tested model is to put people into jobs where they get input from FE colleges combined with support and some supervision when on the job.

We live in a country where lots of people don't have homes, and we have lots of people who would jump at the chance of learning construction skills, plus we have an increasing number of people who have construction skills but lack work, so the obvious thing is to start building homes for the people who need them using the people who have the skills, and those that want to learn, to get the system going again.

However, because the college boys who are running this country have been told by their Thatcherite mentors that such a plan is ideologically unsound, it doesn't happen!

I agree with parts of this,the College decides what qual is gonna be and can change what and when they feel like it as my self and other people have found out since last year.They are stopping the scheme where you will just do the class room training and it will be where you have to be on site.

 

[850Rick]

I thought there are currently NO legisation in plumbing apart from the obvious i.e Gas safe OFTEC and unvented?

There is currently no legislation which you are correct,this is gonna change though from the goverments eyes anyone who isnt qualified as a plumber can just walk up to a customers house do what ever work and could contaminate the water supply.They are out to close the loop hole at some point,when i dont no.The tutors at college are gonna keep us updated on this.Its changing every where,as silly as it sounds years ago anyone could be a hair dresser untill peoples heads was getting burnt through chemicals put on there hair,when the hair dresser didnt do a check first to see if they was allergic to it.My missus is at college now and the missus has to go on courses and get the right papers just to do everyones hair.I think the Goverment are just tightening the belts every where now to be honest

 

[northstar]

what is happening with your course rick ?

 

[Dannyparty92]

But there are time served plumbers out there without NVQ's this can't happen can it?

 

[mountainman]

Why not, I don't have any NVQ's.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

neither do i

 

[Plum Bob 66]

I wouldn't like to be starting out in this game now to do that.



I've studied for 35 years to gain just about every trade related qualification out there and others, spent well over 50k on tools, spent over 100k on vans and i stopped enjoying it years ago. I don't have an NVQ either :smile:



It is not quite like fine wine as you'll find out in about 20 years when the pain kicks in.

Tamz, I think everybody on the forum would agree by your posts and advice that your wealth of knowledge is enviable,invaluable and unbeatable.That said your experiences of the trade seem to suggest you are somewhat disalusioned. There is still plenty of work to be had out there you just have to take take the job by the balls and have some confidence, sure you will make mistakes but that's all part of the learning curve.Its not repeating them that counts.When your sat at home with your pipe and slippers reaping the rewards of your labour its us new boys who will be the next generation who are taking their business forward. I base this on my own experience, my business is going from strength to strength with more and more repeat business coming in and im sure im not the only one.
Bob.

 

[850Rick]

what is happening with your course rick ?

Its still going ahead as planned Northstar.we have to sign upto our level 3 early or we will miss out.Any wanting to do it from september this year for level 2 will need a placement so the college say,

 

[850Rick]

But there are time served plumbers out there without NVQ's this can't happen can it?

The time served plumbers are ok its from the now there tryng to change it.Its all about regs and money and so on.

 

[850Rick]

Why not, I don't have any NVQ's.

You are all ok i can assure you

 

[850Rick]

neither do i

You are all ok i can assure you

 

[petercj]

I agree with parts of this,the College decides what qual is gonna be and can change what and when they feel like it as my self and other people have found out since last year.They are stopping the scheme where you will just do the class room training and it will be where you have to be on site.

All FE colleges have been given a deadline for ending the practice of 100% college based NVQ training, which covers all training sectors, e.g. plumbing, catering, etc, etc.

The colleges will be moving towards Diploma qualifications, C&G, etc.

The Government have effectively cut funding to FE colleges - they say they have made £xxxxx.000's available for apprenticeships, but as many businesses are struggling to keep the staff on they have at the moment, the Government's pledging of cash is pretty safe, i.e. it won't be taken up.

There needs to be coordination and long-term planning of training, and of course the business environment at national level - most politicians haven't been interested in skills training, the focus having been on University education, which they've now managed to make a mess of.

Most of the dimwits in Westminster think in terms of: blue collar - white collar, i.e working with your head, or your hands, they don't get the idea that both increasingly play a part in today's world where things are constantly changing and becoming more technical.

Vince Cable occasionally says something sensible, but then Nick calls him in to give him a metaphorical slap for talking out of turn.

This country would be best served if the Tories hived off business development and related growth to the LD,s, thus giving Vince Cable a shot at getting things going again. The idea that the Tories are good at business is old hat - maybe in the days of Ted Heath there were people in his cabinet that were self-made men, but that's not the case these days. Silver spoon brigade now! Same goes for the Labour Party.