Over charging.

[850Rick]

All FE colleges have been given a deadline for ending the practice of 100% college based NVQ training, which covers all training sectors, e.g. plumbing, catering, etc, etc.

The colleges will be moving towards Diploma qualifications, C&G, etc.

The Government have effectively cut funding to FE colleges - they say they have made £xxxxx.000's available for apprenticeships, but as many businesses are struggling to keep the staff on they have at the moment, the Government's pledging of cash is pretty safe, i.e. it won't be taken up.

There needs to be coordination and long-term planning of training, and of course the business environment at national level - most politicians haven't been interested in skills training, the focus having been on University education, which they've now managed to make a mess of.

Most of the dimwits in Westminster think in terms of: blue collar - white collar, i.e working with your head, or your hands, they don't get the idea that both increasingly play a part in today's world where things are constantly changing and becoming more technical.

Vince Cable occasionally says something sensible, but then Nick calls him in to give him a metaphorical slap for talking out of turn.

This country would be best served if the Tories hived off business development and related growth to the LD,s, thus giving Vince Cable a shot at getting things going again. The idea that the Tories are good at business is old hat - maybe in the days of Ted Heath there were people in his cabinet that were self-made men, but that's not the case these days. Silver spoon brigade now! Same goes for the Labour Party.

I got away with not paying for my level 2 but got to pay for my level 3 as funding has already been cut.Diploma is already in force with City and Guilds anyway. AQF is also a new Qual but also a bridge over from say 6129 to 6189 or what ever it is.The funny thing is the college dont no alot about the bridge over yet with it being new lol

 

[hunterseye]

We've not even been offered lev 3 Rick. It's a case of thanks for your money,there's the door oh and sorry for ripping you off over 60 hours on the course coz we couldn't manage to keep hold of not one or two but 5 lecturers. And people wonder why my knowloedge is limited. So you find yourself asking, what next? The only conclusion i came to was roll my sleeves up and try.

 

[TBServices]

Personally speaking, I learnt a lot on my apprenticeship and tbh I wouldn't be half as good as I am if I'd not gained that experience. College taught me nothing about the practicalities of doing the job. I'm not saying you need an NVQ to get on, but walking out of college and setting up on your own does not make you competent in my eyes.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[850Rick]

We've not even been offered lev 3 Rick. It's a case of thanks for your money,there's the door oh and sorry for ripping you off over 60 hours on the course coz we couldn't manage to keep hold of not one or two but 5 lecturers. And people wonder why my knowloedge is limited. So you find yourself asking, what next? The only conclusion i came to was roll my sleeves up and try.

You will be able to do the new Qual mate its a bridge over.Level 3 is surposed to be hard more indepth with heating,bit of gas and all the engergy stuff.In level 2 we are just scratching the surface with heating

 

[petercj]

I got away with not paying for my level 2 but got to pay for my level 3 as funding has already been cut.Diploma is already in force with City and Guilds anyway. AQF is also a new Qual but also a bridge over from say 6129 to 6189 or what ever it is.The funny thing is the college dont no alot about the bridge over yet with it being new lol

Diplomas have been around for the past 5 years or so - the colleges were put on notice of the issues around NVQ some years back too, having been given time to adjust.

To be fair to the colleges, they don't really know what to allow for. The Government plans suggested that there would be a demand for one-day-a week courses based on apprenticeships, but then the scale talked about was unrealistic, and as the recession has bitten harder and harder, so there is less chance of creating college courses that have work placements.

The abolition of the Adult Learning Grant was given hardly any coverage by the media. The media colluded with politicians by focusing on EMA, which they justified the scrapping of by saying that kids didn't need paying to stay on at school.

 

[hunterseye]

Personally speaking, I learnt a lot on my apprenticeship and tbh I wouldn't be half as good as I am if I'd not gained that experience. College taught me nothing about the practicalities of doing the job. I'm not saying you need an NVQ to get on, but walking out of college and setting up on your own does not make you competent in my eyes.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

totally agree. It does not make you competent. And if i'm honest, the whole adult education system stinks. The questions i ask are bread and butter to you boys, but to me i need to ask. I don't have any other avenue to turn other than to get on with the very small amount i've been taught at college. But you'd be naive to think that a two year tech cert would set you up in the trade. All it does is help you gain a small insight as to the tasks( and only a few at that)a plumber undertakes. So, if i must start small and work my way up, i want to try to do it right, if i don't know something i ask. Since there doesn't seem to be any post course guidance to turn to.

 

[850Rick]

totally agree. It does not make you competent. And if i'm honest, the whole adult education system stinks. The questions i ask are bread and butter to you boys, but to me i need to ask. I don't have any other avenue to turn other than to get on with the very small amount i've been taught at college. But you'd be naive to think that a two year tech cert would set you up in the trade. All it does is help you gain a small insight as to the tasks( and only a few at that)a plumber undertakes. So, if i must start small and work my way up, i want to try to do it right, if i don't know something i ask. Since there doesn't seem to be any post course guidance to turn to.

I think you will be fine mate just takes time

 

[tamz]

Out of interest Tamz how long into the 35 years did you enjoy it for? It must have been a while unless you've been willingly doing a job you don't like for decades.

I had a think about that one and can't quite put a date on it. Probably around the early to mid 2000's. It just kind of snuck up on me gradually.
Probably a lot of it is down to the change in people and attitudes, a lot with how the trade has been allowed to be degraded and devalued, training courses that teach nothing and make you competent and qualified in whatever you can afford to pay for while in reality being totally incompetent , the claim culture that make us fill in endless reams of useless paperwork just in case, the terrible workmanship i see daily etc etc.
Now it just pays the bills until i decide to cash my pension in.

Your are wrong on both accounts,we have had this arguement in college with the tutors many a time.NVQ is just proof of competence,City and Guilds is recognised by employers all over the world,this has always been a grey area in plumbing,like whos quals is better etc.Its a complete load of Shi*e.Every one is doing the same thing at the end of the day.Even if you only have tec cert you can still do Gas and water regs.

City and Guilds are just an awarding body. There is no grey area. The only industry recognised qualification to be employed as a fully qualified plumber (as laid down by the Sector Skills Council and expected by employers) is an NVQ or SVQ . You can get away with an NVQ2 in England but in Scotland you need a minimum of SVQ3.

There is currently no legislation which you are correct,this is gonna change though from the goverments eyes anyone who isnt qualified as a plumber can just walk up to a customers house do what ever work and could contaminate the water supply.They are out to close the loop hole at some point,when i dont no.The tutors at college are gonna keep us updated on this.

Don't hold your breath waiting for that one. The trade bodies have been trying for over a century to have plumbing licensed as it is in other parts of the world (including some so called 3rd world countries). There are many schemes currently in place like the CLE in Scotland but none of them are compulsory and they never will be especially in a domestic situation. The government do not have a vested interest in fixing the shambles our industry is in which they partly created.

Why not, I don't have any NVQ's.

neither do i

You are all ok i can assure you

That is good to know :lol:

 

[hunterseye]

i just cant beleive the education system allows colleges to take your hard earned and start training you then not offer further progression. everyone on my course wanted to be there. we wanted to learn. yet the bread and butter of the college was full time students who didnt give a monkeys and didnt realise what an oppertunity they was throwing away. does my bonce in

 

[R1CKY]

As a fairly young plumber (6 years in the trade) who has recently been through full time college, I agree with a lot that has been said regarding NVQs and even ACS. All they prove is that you can read a book and guess an answer. The amount of incompetent people that walked away with qualifications was unreal!

Fully agree with you, hunterseye, about the full time students. I was 18 when I started out plumbing, but a lot of my class was 16 year olds straight out of school, a lot of them were kicked off the course, what a waste of an oppurtunity. There were guys in your position who had to pay for their course and were fuming with the attitude of the younger ones!

Like others have said, don't undervalue yourself and good luck, we all had to start somewhere and not everyone is lucky enough to have done an apprenticeship.

 

[desrob]

i just cant beleive the education system allows colleges to take your hard earned and start training you then not offer further progression. everyone on my course wanted to be there. we wanted to learn. yet the bread and butter of the college was full time students who didnt give a monkeys and didnt realise what an oppertunity they was throwing away. does my bonce in

they were the smart ones,....tec cert evolved and was designed to put bums on seats,sadly colleges are a business and you bought into that,progression your having a laugh...surly you were aware of this

 

[chris watkins]

I had a think about that one and can't quite put a date on it. Probably around the early to mid 2000's. It just kind of snuck up on me gradually.
Probably a lot of it is down to the change in people and attitudes, a lot with how the trade has been allowed to be degraded and devalued, training courses that teach nothing and make you competent and qualified in whatever you can afford to pay for while in reality being totally incompetent , the claim culture that make us fill in endless reams of useless paperwork just in case, the terrible workmanship i see daily etc etc.
Now it just pays the bills until i decide to cash my pension in.

City and Guilds are just an awarding body. There is no grey area. The only industry recognised qualification to be employed as a fully qualified plumber (as laid down by the Sector Skills Council and expected by employers) is an NVQ or SVQ . You can get away with an NVQ2 in England but in Scotland you need a minimum of SVQ3.

Don't hold your breath waiting for that one. The trade bodies have been trying for over a century to have plumbing licensed as it is in other parts of the world (including some so called 3rd world countries). There are many schemes currently in place like the CLE in Scotland but none of them are compulsory and they never will be especially in a domestic situation. The government do not have a vested interest in fixing the shambles our industry is in which they partly created.

That is good to know :lol:

As ever some pearls Tamz, two things, only just found out somewhere else that you can only do SVQ at level 3! & that is all that is recognised by industry. Why the bl..dy hell is it not the same in England ? might not stop the Tech Cert' ers but at least it sends the right signals.
Quite sad to hear you say the first bit, I hope its not quite as bad as you make out ? I do know were you are coming from though, for around 35 years I have lived & breathed it & for the the first time this year I am starting to question what I am doing.

 

[tamz]

The tec cert is not a recognised qual at all up here at all, although there are some private centres who offer it but it is useless if you want a job. Perhaps someone in authority had a bit sense and saw it for what it was.
I believe if Scotland becomes independent in the future, that licensing will become a reality up here as the Scottish Government are very supportive of the idea (not just for plumbers) and encouraged the set up of the CLE CLE Construction Licensing Executive Home to promote it and work closely (and listen) with trade bodies. We'll see what happens.
You may find some of this interesting
SNIPEF Homepage
I can't give you the password i'm afraid but you should be able to open a lot of the links.

Since i first stumbled into plumbing at the age of 15 (i really wanted to be a doctor but needed some quick cash :lol and nearly took the thumb off myself in my first 5 minutes, with the skill and deft of a hacksaw wielding apprentice surgeon, cutting a full 20ft bundle of 3/4" in half over my knee, i knew this was for me. My first real introduction to the world of tetanus which would hold me in good stead for the future! The black tape that was wrapped around the cut to hold my thumb on (i still have the 2" scar) and the slap i got on the back of the head for being a useless b........ just convinced me this was the world of real men :49: (the black tape and slap is true :smile: Changed days eh!)

I worked with some brilliant guys who could do things and knew things i never will and the company i worked with saw the potential in me and encouraged me to study. I soaked up knowledge from everyone i met from all trades learning the black arts, everything from how to cut a hole in a cast iron pipe with a hammer and chisel to the seduction of the middle aged married woman

I loved it and being part of something more valuable than money (although working 12- 15hrs days 7 days a week i made (and spent) a lot of that). It wasn't just a job (careers were for fannys), it was a vocation. It was my life blood.

Maybe i am just getting old and Victor Meldrew ish but i became a bit disillusioned and despondent over how things were moving in the industry. Many of the guys i know feel the same.
I now pick and choose what i do and for who. I like new challenges, maybe i just got bored :lol:

Maybe partly why i come on here is in a hope to pass some useful knowledge on in the hope of keeping standards up but we are only small fish in a big pond.

 

[hunterseye]

Fully agree with you, hunterseye, about the full time students. I was 18 when I started out plumbing, but a lot of my class was 16 year olds straight out of school, a lot of them were kicked off the course, what a waste of an oppurtunity. There were guys in your position who had to pay for their course and were fuming with the attitude of the younger ones!

Like others have said, don't undervalue yourself and good luck, we all had to start somewhere and not everyone is lucky enough to have done an apprenticeship.[/QUOTE]Many thanks Ricky. i agree with pretty much all of it stated above. I can fully understand why experianced plumbers also take a dim view on tech certs, because just having completed one i also share that view. Bottom line is nothing beats experiance in the real world,but unfortunatly thats where all the doors close apart from the go it alone approach. Having said that, i also believe if a person is applied enough and focused on acheiving what they want this too can be accomplished. So whilst i dont blame some of the guys on here for maybe looking down on me for having a 'mickey mouse qual' i would just ask for a bit of understanding in the fact that i want to learn and want to do well.

 

[R1CKY]

Nobody should be looking down on anybody. Plumbing isn't a difficult trade, it is lack of confidence and experience that holds people back. I see it with apprentices all the time. As long as you are keen, have a good understanding of plumbing, take pride in your work and treat customers well, you won't go far wrong. Confidence and experience will come in time.

There is no shame in asking questions.

 

[Plum Bob 66]

The tec cert is not a recognised qual at all up here at all, although there are some private centres who offer it but it is useless if you want a job. Perhaps someone in authority had a bit sense and saw it for what it was.
I believe if Scotland becomes independent in the future, that licensing will become a reality up here as the Scottish Government are very supportive of the idea (not just for plumbers) and encouraged the set up of the CLE CLE Construction Licensing Executive Home to promote it and work closely (and listen) with trade bodies. We'll see what happens.
You may find some of this interesting
SNIPEF Homepage
I can't give you the password i'm afraid but you should be able to open a lot of the links.

Since i first stumbled into plumbing at the age of 15 (i really wanted to be a doctor but needed some quick cash :lol and nearly took the thumb off myself in my first 5 minutes, with the skill and deft of a hacksaw wielding apprentice surgeon, cutting a full 20ft bundle of 3/4" in half over my knee, i knew this was for me. My first real introduction to the world of tetanus which would hold me in good stead for the future! The black tape that was wrapped around the cut to hold my thumb on (i still have the 2" scar) and the slap i got on the back of the head for being a useless b........ just convinced me this was the world of real men :49: (the black tape and slap is true :smile: Changed days eh!)

I worked with some brilliant guys who could do things and knew things i never will and the company i worked with saw the potential in me and encouraged me to study. I soaked up knowledge from everyone i met from all trades learning the black arts, everything from how to cut a hole in a cast iron pipe with a hammer and chisel to the seduction of the middle aged married woman :1eye:
I loved it and being part of something more valuable than money (although working 12- 15hrs days 7 days a week i made (and spent) a lot of that). It wasn't just a job (careers were for fannys), it was a vocation. It was my life blood.

Maybe i am just getting old and Victor Meldrew ish but i became a bit disillusioned and despondent over how things were moving in the industry. Many of the guys i know feel the same.
I now pick and choose what i do and for who. I like new challenges, maybe i just got bored :lol:

Maybe partly why i come on here is in a hope to pass some useful knowledge on in the hope of keeping standards up but we are only small fish in a big pond.

Great post tamz, but at 0237 you must have matchsticks propping your lids open

 

[chris watkins]

Nobody should be looking down on anybody. Plumbing isn't a difficult trade, it is lack of confidence and experience that holds people back. I see it with apprentices all the time. As long as you are keen, have a good understanding of plumbing, take pride in your work and treat customers well, you won't go far wrong. Confidence and experience will come in time.

There is no shame in asking questions.

R1CKY, I would humble suggest that you have neither knowledge or the experience to make this statement "Plumbing isn't a difficult trade" it is the most difficult of all to practice well. I have seen & worked with most of the trades & can say with some confident's that none come close. Plumbing is not just about pushing a few pipes together it covers such a wide range of disciplines & materials.

 

[petercj]

Nobody should be looking down on anybody. Plumbing isn't a difficult trade, it is lack of confidence and experience that holds people back. I see it with apprentices all the time. As long as you are keen, have a good understanding of plumbing, take pride in your work and treat customers well, you won't go far wrong. Confidence and experience will come in time.

There is no shame in asking questions.

Well said Ricky - GB has made a major investment in workplace training (NVQ), but there's a massive lack of workplaces at the moment.

GB needs a major re-think in many areas, and training is one of them.

Very sad to read of the experiences of some of the people posting on here re FE colleges. My eldest son has just completed his Advanced Diploma in Professional Cooking, and the moans and groans about the very young one's trying the patients of the tutors was very familiar. The college he trained at has it's own restaurant, so the students were able to get some practice, but because my son was 20 when he started the course he didn't get a penny by way of financial support. If he'd signed on and sat at home he would have got £60 per week, how can that ever make sense?

I hope all the guys on here that are currently struggling can get jobs and consolidate their training in the workplace - colleges can only ever do so much, and the old saying that: 'practice makes perfect' is a good goal to aim for.

Watching and learning from experience tradesmen is an invaluable experience, but putting down college qualifications is not the way to go.

Re your final sentence: as the saying goes: "The person who asks a questions risks looking ignorant for a moment, but the person who doesn't ask questions risks staying ignorant for a lifetime!"

 

[hunterseye]

Must admit, i've just looked at that hall of shame thread and all of a sudden i feel pounds better. There is some proper corkers in there.

 

[hunterseye]

Well said Ricky - GB has made a major investment in workplace training (NVQ), but there's a massive lack of workplaces at the moment.

GB needs a major re-think in many areas, and training is one of them.

Very sad to read of the experiences of some of the people posting on here re FE colleges. My eldest son has just completed his Advanced Diploma in Professional Cooking, and the moans and groans about the very young one's trying the patients of the tutors was very familiar. The college he trained at has it's own restaurant, so the students were able to get some practice, but because my son was 20 when he started the course he didn't get a penny by way of financial support. If he'd signed on and sat at home he would have got £60 per week, how can that ever make sense?

I hope all the guys on here that are currently struggling can get jobs and consolidate their training in the workplace - colleges can only ever do so much, and the old saying that: 'practice makes perfect' is a good goal to aim for.

Watching and learning from experience tradesmen is an invaluable experience, but putting down college qualifications is not the way to go.

Re your final sentence: as the saying goes: "The person who asks a questions risks looking ignorant for a moment, but the person who doesn't ask questions risks staying ignorant for a lifetime!"

Fantastic reply mate and supportive. thank you.

 

[SimonG]

Nobody should be looking down on anybody. Plumbing isn't a difficult trade, it is lack of confidence and experience that holds people back. I see it with apprentices all the time. As long as you are keen, have a good understanding of plumbing, take pride in your work and treat customers well, you won't go far wrong. Confidence and experience will come in time.

There is no shame in asking questions.

Only picking you up on the 'plumbing isn't a difficult trade', oh yes it is. Looking back, I would rather have been a spark, never see a dirty one round my way. I look forward to any holidays, it's the only time I can truly get my hands clean.

The rest of it I like.

 

[tamz]

Great post tamz, but at 0237 you must have matchsticks propping your lids open

Another thing you find out as you get older. You need less sleep :smile:

 

[Dannypipe]

The older I get, the more I need!!

 

[chris watkins]

The older I get, the more I need!!

Ar' you are not old enough then Danny, you haven't reached the tipping point yet, you can still remember - getting up, half an hour before you went to bed, working a 26 1/2 hour day on site & all this after sinking 15 pints (of strong beer not that weak stuff U drink now) with only an hours sleep after giving the wife one (for an hour), & all before you got up & did it the next day. You are fighting it, saying "well I use to be able to do it why not now". (so does the wife).:sleep1:
It will come soon enough Danny:skull:.

 

[Dannypipe]

I'm 34, and counting. Haven't sunk 15 pints and gone to work in a long, looong time.

Had a lads poker night the other week, and sat up till gone 3am, swilling down whisky by the bucket load.

It seriously took me about 3/4 days to fully recover. I was a wreck!! As for giving the wife one for an hour......Yeah right!! LOL.

 

[chris watkins]

See, told you, getting old !!!! soon be looking forward to an afternoon :sleep1:

 

[Ice Mario]

I think £40 would be fairer especially if you haave to go back!! :rolleyes2:

 

[petercj]

I think £40 would be fairer especially if you haave to go back!! :rolleyes2:

How about £45 on the basis that you'll call when they're ready to decorate the bit of wall behind the radiator, and you'll remove the rad, give them 20 minutes to decorate, and put the radiator back on?

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr, better still, £5O and you'll remove the rad, fit a thermally efficient reflective backing and replace the rad - so just one visit necessary. Never know, they might ask you to do all the other rads in the house.

Might also be an opportunity to quote for TRVs, wireless room stat, power flushing, etc, etc, all being based on the potential for cutting the customer's gas bills.

 

[peteheat]

How about £45 on the basis that you'll call when they're ready to decorate the bit of wall behind the radiator, and you'll remove the rad, give them 20 minutes to decorate, and put the radiator back on?

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr, better still, £5O and you'll remove the rad, fit a thermally efficient reflective backing and replace the rad - so just one visit necessary. Never know, they might ask you to do all the other rads in the house.

Might also be an opportunity to quote for TRVs, wireless room stat, power flushing, etc, etc, all being based on the potential for cutting the customer's gas bills.

Treat it as an opportunity to sell, the bonus being your getting paid for doing what should come naturally to you.

 

[hunterseye]

How about £45 on the basis that you'll call when they're ready to decorate the bit of wall behind the radiator, and you'll remove the rad, give them 20 minutes to decorate, and put the radiator back on?

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr, better still, £5O and you'll remove the rad, fit a thermally efficient reflective backing and replace the rad - so just one visit necessary. Never know, they might ask you to do all the other rads in the house.

Might also be an opportunity to quote for TRVs, wireless room stat, power flushing, etc, etc, all being based on the potential for cutting the customer's gas bills.

Thats a great idea mate.

 

[petercj]

Always aim to sell your services based on what the customer can save by having the work done.

BG for example, parade the fact that you can save £654 by having a new boiler fitted in August, but what they fail to mention is how much it's going to cost you! Basically, it will be: spend a lot to save a little with BG. Probably a third more than Johnny Ball's lot, and with a 12 month warranty rather than the ten years provided by the JB offfer.

Boilers and New Gas Boiler Installations - British Gas

 

[hunterseye]

Seen that advert a few times with jb. thought there may be a catch.

 

[petercj]

Seen that advert a few times with jb. thought there may be a catch.

Whereas with BG you assumed that they would quote a fair price? My guess is that a lot of people would.

This thread starts with a very straightforward question, and yet has led to all sorts of opinions being put forward.

Personally, I think the thread title should have been: "undercharging", and not "overcharging". If someone is running a business with all the associated overheads, I reckon it has to be fair to charge between £40 to £50 to turn out in a van and attend at someone's home, even if the actual job only take 20 minutes.

If you were already working on the site, then £20 to remove and refit a radiator would seem fair to me - but if you are having to travel to the job, and back to base, then £40 to £50 seems about right to me.

But then if someone says: "I'm sat on me backside at home answering questions on plumbing on the Internet for nowt, so I just as well go and do this rad job for less than what it's really worth", can anyone criticise them for that?

Some will say you are "prostituting" your trade skills and letting the side down, but then another way of seeing it is that you are reducing the fixed costs that come with having a business.

If the customer is happy to pay £20 to have the rad taken off, then they should be happy to pay £20 to have it put back, so if the journey is a short one, and if you can refit the radiator when you are in the area again, then maybe the £20 job is worth doing when it turns into a £40 job?

Selling yourself cheap is generally not a good strategy, so maybe making it clear that you were in their area anyway is the way to go. Plus of course, there is always the chance that the radiator job will lead to other jobs that may be far more lucrative. Maybe directly, or indirectly through recommendation.

One things for sure, being too proud to discuss prices with customers during a recession is a recipe for disaster.

BTW, I rang the Johnny Ball people just out of interest, and if you make a one-off payment in full for a straight boiler change the price is £1798 for a WB with a 10 year warranty. A chemical flush is included, power-flushing is on top if needed - which seems very fair to me. The warranty conditions require an annual service, but it can be done by any Gas Reg engineer of the customer's choosing.

The last I heard, BG charge £3000+ for the same boiler with a 1 year warranty.

As the man says: "Do the maths!"

 

[850Rick]

I'm 34, and counting. Haven't sunk 15 pints and gone to work in a long, looong time.

Had a lads poker night the other week, and sat up till gone 3am, swilling down whisky by the bucket load.

It seriously took me about 3/4 days to fully recover. I was a wreck!! As for giving the wife one for an hour......Yeah right!! LOL.

Im 31 im not old and i dont feel it either lol,then again i dont drink or smoke

 

[hunterseye]

Whereas with BG you assumed that they would quote a fair price? My guess is that a lot of people would.

This thread starts with a very straightforward question, and yet has led to all sorts of opinions being put forward.

Personally, I think the thread title should have been: "undercharging", and not "overcharging". If someone is running a business with all the associated overheads, I reckon it has to be fair to charge between £40 to £50 to turn out in a van and attend at someone's home, even if the actual job only take 20 minutes.

If you were already working on the site, then £20 to remove and refit a radiator would seem fair to me - but if you are having to travel to the job, and back to base, then £40 to £50 seems about right to me.

But then if someone says: "I'm sat on me backside at home answering questions on plumbing on the Internet for nowt, so I just as well go and do this rad job for less than what it's really worth", can anyone criticise them for that?

Some will say you are "prostituting" your trade skills and letting the side down, but then another way of seeing it is that you are reducing the fixed costs that come with having a business.

If the customer is happy to pay £20 to have the rad taken off, then they should be happy to pay £20 to have it put back, so if the journey is a short one, and if you can refit the radiator when you are in the area again, then maybe the £20 job is worth doing when it turns into a £40 job?

Selling yourself cheap is generally not a good strategy, so maybe making it clear that you were in their area anyway is the way to go. Plus of course, there is always the chance that the radiator job will lead to other jobs that may be far more lucrative. Maybe directly, or indirectly through recommendation.

One things for sure, being too proud to discuss prices with customers during a recession is a recipe for disaster.

BTW, I rang the Johnny Ball people just out of interest, and if you make a one-off payment in full for a straight boiler change the price is £1798 for a WB with a 10 year warranty. A chemical flush is included, power-flushing is on top if needed - which seems very fair to me. The warranty conditions require an annual service, but it can be done by any Gas Reg engineer of the customer's choosing.

The last I heard, BG charge £3000+ for the same boiler with a 1 year warranty.

As the man says: "Do the maths!"

i really dont want to under sell or prostitute. I dont want to do someone else out of work either by knowingly undercutting. i want to charge the goung rate for the same service any other plumber would offer.

i desperatly want to work with an experianced plumber to stick some years under my belt but i cant even work for free.

perhaps an oppertunity will arise at some point but until it does i have to do the best i can. its not such a bad thing though as each and every job i get. i research to the best of my ability i take photos even and explain my situation. which customers seem to be ok with.