New radiators installed, cant balance system

[Paul Mac]

Hello,

I have recently had a new extension fitted to the house. All the electrical work and plumbing etc. was dealt with by the builder as a complete job. After 3 weeks of his plumber attempting to get the system working he has walked away and left my builder and myself somewhat in the lurch.

The extension now holds 3 radiators and during the works we removed 1 so in essence we now have an additional 2 radiators in the house. I also had a new Vaillant Ecotec 831 installed 12 months ago and was serviced 2 weeks ago.

To summerise the problem the main heating in all the house seems to operate without any problems at all. The new radiators in the extension do not work properly. The main room radiator gets luke warm, the bathroom radiator takes 1+hour to even get tepid with the heating on full and the study does not get warm at all.

I have had a look around the web and resorted to try balancing the system myself however after a few hours and then eventually turning off all the radiators by the valve on each one the radiator in the new extension main room began to get hot as did the bathroom but not the study?

I have recorded some information below which may help diagnose the problem? Any help would be much appreciated.
Many thanks in advance

Paul

 

[SimonG]

What size pipework are we talking about and how as the pipework for the new extension been tied into the existing?

 

[Paul Mac]

Hello Simon,

The pipework is plastic push fit apart from some sections where the rads join. The origional feed to the radiator we took out has been used to add the 3 new ones. The pipework here goes from 10mm (ish) upto 15 to run to the new radiators and then back to 10 where it enters the rads.

The first tee of the flow is to the main room with a tee to the bathroom, then this tees off the bathroom to the study. I have attached pics original feed on RHS showing isolation valves, through wall to new rad in main room. Tee then comes to second pic through to study and down to bathroom





Kind Regards
Paul

 

[AWheating]

pipework should be clipped better and lagged and the isolation valves will cause a massive restriction and are not rated for central heating applications. the pipework to the new rads should really be run back to larger pipework section...... i would say the problem is likely the pipework as a guess.

 

[stevetheplumber]

prime example of why you should never let a builder do the plumbing i just hope he didnt have to move the boiler for this extention

 

[PlumbBobBob]

not a quality installation

 

[Subby]

As Simon has hinted at, the radiators should have been teed into the 22mm primary flow and return pipes. 10mm pipe can only carry enough water to supply one rad.

 

[LegionellaSlave]

pipework should be clipped better and lagged and the isolation valves will cause a massive restriction and are not rated for central heating applications. the pipework to the new rads should really be run back to larger pipework section...... i would say the problem is likely the pipework as a guess.

Agreed.

Shame on whoever done that pipework. :hanged:

 

[Mike Jackson]

That will never work. Proper re-pipe needed. You'll need a heating engineer that knows what he's doing rather than a fly by night who's done that work.


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[Paul Mac]

Dear Mike, Leigionella, Subby and AW.

Many thanks for taking the time to reply with some advice. I can see exactly what you are saying, it makes no sense to go from 10 to 15. Also the isolation valves never occurred to me but that too is a restriction!

Fortunately the pipework is accessible as you can see from the pictures, i will take up the floor in the room above tomorrow and chase the 10mm pipework back to source (15mm). I will then contact a local plumber to fix.

I will post back with the results but hopefully this should resolve it based on your knowledge and recommendations. The builder has sacked the plumber, im only disappointed he didn't do it sooner so I may not have been in this situation

Paul

 

[Best]

"Plumber" is probably not a plumber or a heating engineer & any builder should have known just by looking at that work that it was terrible!
10 mm is barely enough for 1 large rad & also shouldn't be run any great length. Probably needed 22mm pipe from the main pipes & then 15mm off to each rad.

 

[fuzzy]

Hello Simon,

The pipework is plastic push fit apart from some sections where the rads join. The origional feed to the radiator we took out has been used to add the 3 new ones. The pipework here goes from 10mm (ish) upto 15 to run to the new radiators and then back to 10 where it enters the rads.

The first tee of the flow is to the main room with a tee to the bathroom, then this tees off the bathroom to the study. I have attached pics original feed on RHS showing isolation valves, through wall to new rad in main room. Tee then comes to second pic through to study and down to bathroom


View attachment 7852 View attachment 7853


Kind Regards
Paul

that is appalling

 

[fuzzy]

probably undersized pipework, if so, what ever you do you will never get all rads warm at the same time

 

[mountainman]

that is appalling

An excellent and accurate description IMO.

I don't think that the builder can be up to much for allowing such shoddy pipework in the first place.
I hope the spark was at least competent :-/

 

[Paul Mac]

Hello again,

I have pulled up the floor and chased back the pipes, fortunatley the main ring can be accessed easily under the boards (Even thogh there a pig to get up). The ring is fed in 15mm pipe and i have contacted the heating engineer who put my boiler in last year who agrees with all your advice on here.
(He even wants to pursue the prankster who installed it to check he's blacklisted locally, he took pics etc.)

So 15mm pipework is to be connected into the 15mm pipework on the main pipework the isolation valves are to be removed and straight connectors put in.

Again i will let you all know how it goes, and thanks again for your assistance so far,

Paul

 

[Best]

You have 3 new rads & if 2 of them or more were fairly big it would have been best having 22mm from 22mm pipes, even if reducing down to 15mm after first large rad. Guess the downstairs toilet is not a large rad anyway. Perhaps you have to work with what is there & your heating guy should know if it is okay.

 

[SimonG]

Sounds like its moving in the right direction.

 

[Paul Mac]

Cheers Best / Simon,

Plumber has been today and removed 10mm replaced with 15mm. Bled the system which seemed to take a while and i admit he had me a little worried however the rads were getting warm though the study was struggling. He turned all other rads in house off and all 3 new ones were kicking out the heat, he then balanced the system even having some rads in the house <1/4 open!

He told me to leave it a few days to let it settle down but he might have to come back and tweak it a little.

Thanks for all your help it is greatly appreciated. In honour of your help i donated some money to a couple of guys at work doing a charity bike ride to 'spread the good will' if you like.

Thanks again

Paul

 

[SimonG]

Thanks for the update.

 

[Paul Mac]

Hello Gents,

Well the system looks good, all rads are working and the house is nice and warm There is a couple of gurgling noises every so often on the rads, i assume air still in the system but there cant be much, i will keep venting to ensure its out.

As i mentioned above, thanks again for your help

Kind regards

Paul

 

[Howsie]

Don't touch it. It's your builders responsibility to get it sorted unless he knocked some money off because a blind man was on the pipes. Touch it at your peril as you've given him a get out.

IMHO that work wasn't done by a plumber.

 

[WHPES]

What a shocking job! Definitely not done by a plumber. Even our village handyman would have made a better job than that. Pipes not even straight or bracketed properly. No attempt made to make the job look neat. Bet it's not been pressure tested either. Don't bother attempting to balance it because it'll be a waste of time as it's probably impossible anyway.

 

[Mike Jackson]

I take it you two haven't read the entire post. The job has been rectified by another plumber and is now working properly.