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Derek Hardman
https://www.************/megs.uk.campaign
Already a petition for that here Nostrum
Already a petition for that here Nostrum
Discuss Must you be Gas Safe Registered to do Gas installation? Read HSE's response. in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net
This is so true and people haven't considered the repercussions yet I don't think!Actually though, the current guidance makes it clearer for the worse in my opinion. Anyone reading that will now know they can have a go.
Check out this url DIY GAS - DIYnot.com - DIY and Home ImprovementActually though, the current guidance makes it clearer for the worse in my opinion. Anyone reading that will now know they can have a go.
https://www.************/megs.uk.campaign
Already a petition for that here Nostrum
just to add: this would allow skilled DIYers to carry out work in their homes, but they would then have to pay for an inspection (as they should now anyway) at least then the safety of the installation could be assessed.
Would you like an honest answer to that. On paper yes, in reality far from it and anyone with any sense can see that. I could teach my grand daughter to pass acs. It proves nothing but it satisfies the governments need for everyone in all areas of work to be competent aka your rse in the sling if it goes wrong because you are trained (really?) and proved "competent" so should have known betterbut let me ask you this, is being GSRed being competent! I think you find the answer is yes
Why assume this weak-end working team are not GSR in their own right?Here's a post that just went on our forum (Gas Engineers Forum on Facebook);
"I was told the other day about a Worcester engineer telling a customer she need a new boiler ,he and his mate could do it at weekend if she was interested"
is being GSRed being competent! I think you find the answer is yes.
Would you like an honest answer to that. On paper yes, in reality far from it and anyone with any sense can see that. I could teach my grand daughter to pass acs. It proves nothing but it satisfies the governments need for everyone in all areas of work to be competent aka your rse in the sling if it goes wrong because you are trained (really?) and proved "competent" so should have known better
I forgot to add we are then paying income tax or corporation tax and NI as well. So we are left with about ÂŁ550 to live on out of the ÂŁ1,000 - well if we are paying tax at lower threshold - if you are in the higher bracket you are left with less.Finally when it comes to prices here is how it works out: If we add ÂŁ1,000 on top of the cost of materials almost ÂŁ200 will go to government for VAT.
About ÂŁ100 might go to various business overheads (adverts, van, phone...)
That leaves ÂŁ700 profit.
The man declaring nothing and working on the side has already earned his living and could make the same profit as us by charging ÂŁ300 less, but also as this is extra for him perhaps he is happy to just earn ÂŁ500.
Never said anything different. We all know ACS is a very good way of proving competence and would go along way to demonstrating this if it were to be challenged in a court of law. So as I said earlier if I am a qualified gas fitter with up to date ACS in all the relevant cat's (competent), I work for a registered business in the week as a GSR registered operative. So if some people had there way they would change the law to prevent me carrying out gas work in my own home (DIY) out of my work time unless I registered with GSR in my own right. OK it may be open to abuse by the majority of DIY people who think they are competent but are not, but it would certainly be against the rights of those who have proven competence. This has effected me in the past, when I worked for a registered business and the terms of my employment did not allow me to have my own personal registration. Also if I did register with GSR so that I could do the one DIY job at home, What happens when GSR do an inspection on my registration and ask to see 3 jobs I have carried out? They would prefer not to see work at the installers own address and I would have nothing else to show them and they would through the terms and conditions of registration in my face.such a thing does not exist !!! not in my training centre when i did my acs ! every person that does gas must be competent
and then competent person is the one that has done acs and is gsr only , if person is gsr under company he/she then does not have the right to do any other gas work does not matter who for if its not work that the business is employed to do
Totally agree, demonstrating competence with every job you do is the only way to keep you out of trouble. We have all come across the people that have passed the ACS but don't practice competence in their every day work.the whole issue about illegal work registered or not is that nothing will be done until you kill or maim some innocent party, and even if your acs approved and gsr with a company, if you do private work out of context and someone is injured, you can be sure you bum is grass, but until that happens no one will care and it will continue to happen.
you have to draw the line somewhere. Your statement is very generalistic and I guess it could apply to every profession. We have a good qualified machinist then we have a bad one too, if you were to dismiss the bad engineer then we must only push first class Hons degrees through our universities! So far as people knowing what my aspiration from all this is, perhaps you can in a few line describe that, I'm fast beginning to doubt your claim!Would you like an honest answer to that. On paper yes, in reality far from it and anyone with any sense can see that. I could teach my grand daughter to pass acs. It proves nothing but it satisfies the governments need for everyone in all areas of work to be competent aka your rse in the sling if it goes wrong because you are trained (really?) and proved "competent" so should have known better
Your idea is good in principle and i agree with what you are trying to do but you are on a hiding to nothing i'm afraid.
You're absolutely correct. That is why I claim every gas related work should ultimately go through GSR. They have qualified experienced Gas engineers, ok so I agree not all of them are quality based but they sure as hell understand more about Gas than Buildings Control. The effects of L56 in principle supports the contrary.Building control Tamz, as this is the system in place now. The quality of the inspections is another matter and would need to be looked at separately. No one is saying it will completely stamp out shoddy work, but it will go some way to helping. The consumer doesn't have a clue in all fairness. There are people out there who easily exploit that by poor workmanship and no registration.
No one said anything about paying to work. The principle is to scare the consumer by way of fines for not ensuring the tradesmen they're using is up to the job and completed it correctly. This will increase the amount of notifications, which will increase revenue to hopefully be able to improve the inspection process. It also leaves a paper trail so that if the customer does get seen off, the registration documents allow the installer to be traced.
its not fool proof but goes some way to tightening up on what is at present a joke of a system.
The current regs and the proposed one will create more scenarios for illegal Gas works to take place, also it will give a firmer impression for people to take more work from registered businesses (registered with HMRC). You might as well leave the definitions as ambiguous as it currently is.Why assume this weak-end working team are not GSR in their own right?
It may well be the "mate" is a self-employed sole trader.
I know many guys who "moonlight" at weekends and have had corgi/gsr in their own name and pub L insurance.
The cost of GSR & insurance is low compared to the consequences of being caught out with out them - they say.
It is also low compared to what we pay in tax - people working on the side for cash and not declaring tax/vat is
Where these guys have an unfair advantage is:
1. they've already earned a weeks wage and got a foot in the door through their employer;
2. they're employer might not like it;
3. they might not be declaring tax - but they might be, we don't know.
4. he might be using the van, parts, equipment provided by his company (stealing) - but he might not be.
I think focusing on being GSR instead of competent is a waste of our time when there are more constructive things we could campaign on:
Why -
1. if gas engineers are working "on the side" for payment without being gsr and without insurance now then they will carry on doing so. There are breaking the law now and obviously don't care about the risk.
2. those who will be penalised by making GSR compulsory for all "diy" work will be some of the very best competent engineers who only work for their employer and do not do work on the side so they do not currently have own gsr. BUt they might help out their family and do DIY at home - why not they know what they are doing - why should they be forced to pay someone else.
I understand we all want to stop cowboys and some unfair competition -
The current legislation already makes it illegal to work without GSR - so if this is not being implimented - efforts should be focused on implementing current rules. It may be that methods for policing the current gas regs need to be changed/improved.
I think there are two separate themes to these discussions:
1.Gas safety & competence. This a popular theme that the public can relate to.
2. Low low prices for private domestic gas work - and unfair competition for this work.
As I have said. We hardly do private gas wok of any sort because competition is so great and prices are rock bottom
Along with rock bottom prices often goes poor quality, not installing to building regs (upgrades TRVs etc), not declaring income for tax. But all these things are illegal so it is about informing the public, informing heating engineers and implementing current rules.
All of which must be easier to achieve that trying to change legislation.
Finally when it comes to prices here is how it works out: If we add ÂŁ1,000 on top of the cost of materials almost ÂŁ200 will go to government for VAT.
About ÂŁ100 might go to various business overheads (adverts, van, phone...)
That leaves ÂŁ700 profit.
The man declaring nothing and working on the side has already earned his living and could make the same profit as us by charging ÂŁ300 less, but also as this is extra for him perhaps he is happy to just earn ÂŁ500.
Any plumber who works all year on supply & fit basis is going to be over the VAT threshold aren't they?
I think it would be more constructive and possibly more successful to focus campaiging efforts on some of these things, and I think you could add more -
1. Rasiing public awareness of GSR & risks.
2. Ensuring only GSR do paid gas work - not builders.
3. Changing this around the SALE of gas fittings - ideally just to GSR trade but at the very least with some warning against DIY gas work.
4. Some small businesses ask customers to buy all the stuff so they can just charge labour and avoid VAT - this is unfair.
5. low VAT rate on all new heating fittings including boilers - why not! Or better remove VAT from boilers, new heating systems and upgrades.... insteead of that ridulous thing with small controls being low VAT rate but only when fitted on their own but not if fitted with a new boiler.
6. Building Regs. - better information publicity for the public so they know what to expect about controls and why their new boiler quote will be so expensive.
7. Or change boiler regs so that people who are poor can be exempt (like 30% of the population) can have cheaper installations that they can actually afford.
8. Get rid of all those schemes that exclude sole traders because of red tape, extra training, extra costs just to do the same work you always did.
Mate, I'll never question people's intelligence and level of knowledge. What you're describing has nothing to do with my claim. Look it's simple. In no one scenario, you're ever going to please 100% of people 100 % of time. In our industry we must have a code of practice to work to. To say that you must be GSRed to work with Gas may upset some people, this by no means is descriptive of their competence! It is a simple standardisation ethic and every business needs one. It is a very practical situation for those who want to works with Gas, to also become registered. I believe it doesn't even cost as much as full registration any way. Besides mate, at the college where I completed my NVQ, all tutors were GSRed, so I don't see why this gentleman doesn't follow suit!Thank you Tam for putting it better than I have been managing to do!
Reza - I support what you are trying to do, but I think you have become seriously obsessed with GSR being the only true measure of competence. The "one ring" of gas work if you like. It proves very very little in reality.
The instructor on my course is an example. He is in his 60s, came up through the Gas Board as an apprentice, then gas engineer, supervisor, manager, trainer and finally to a private provider. He had retired off the tools and let his registration lapse. In your book, he is not competent to work on gas! I would never be so arrogant or blind to his decades of experience and knowledge as to dismiss someone like that. I'd rather have him fit my boiler than a lot of the guys that I went through the course with. They were great at memorising what's in the books, and at passing exams, hopeless on the tools. I include myself in that, by the way. I knew very little when I qualified, and most of what I've learnt has been since that time, through experience. Yet if I let my registration lapse, by your reckoning I would be less competent now, than I was was I first got my GSR number!
Remember also that registration only became a legal requirement in 1998 with the introduction of GSIUR. Before that there was no registration scheme, no exams or assessments. Are you suggesting that everybody working on gas before that time was incompetent?
I think you are placing far too much importance on a piece of paper and a little plastic card. Knowledge, skill and experience don't just come from passing exams, and there are people out there who have never taken ACS who are far better engineers than you or I will ever be.
all tutors were GSRed, so I don't see why this gentleman doesn't follow suit!
Agreed maty, either ACS or GSRed doesn't truly explore competence, but that depends on people's definition of competence. I can only go by what the current system stipulates. COMPETENCE = GSRed = ACS Qualified. Do you want my aims and objective to all this! Have you seen the petition on line asking for reform and reassessment of the Regs?You certainly have to draw the line somewhere, i agree with you. For its many flaws and failings ACS is what we have and is better than nothing but to make a general statement that everyone who is ACS qualified and GSR'd is truly competent in what they do is nonsense. Competence in any trade or line of work does not solely come from the ability to read and answer a few questions no matter how good or bad you may be at doing the actual work.
I have no idea what your aspirations or final goals are on this but if you don't shout you will never be heard. Maybe you might push a few buttons with those in power, maybe you won't but if you never try you will never know.
No mate, I was referring to Masood's tutor, and I wasn't implying anything in a derogatory terms either buddy, I hope the sentiment is mutual though!If i am the gentleman you are referring to, I was gas registered probably before you were born (4 digit number)
Have you seen the petition on line asking for reform and reassessment of the Regs?
No mate, I was referring to Masood's tutor, and I wasn't implying anything in a derogatory terms either buddy, I hope the sentiment is mutual though!
Buddy, positive things will only happen if you consider the glass as half full. Nothing ventured nothing gained! What really is there to loose! Now how does one upload an image here?No offence taken. I actually agree with what you seem to be aiming at here. Whether or not you get the powers that be to sit up and listen is another thing.
Their primary contract lies with their employer, it's only ethical if they respect the terms of their contract. What would you do if an employee of yours poached your customer, all be it their mates and got cash for it! Similar to the cases we have all seen! Are we beginning to see how L56 could not just lead onto illegitimate work and I choose that word carefully, but it opens a narrative to being professionally unethical.It won't happen as it would be seen as a way to legitimise taking work from the employer.
Most firms will not allow personal registration for that reason.
still, doesn't justify breaching your contract though. I hate the big corporation as much as anyone, but an employment agreement is still a valid document and legally binding. There are also lots of smaller firms who employ people! More to the point, it's unethical because I or you or another sole trader could have had that job. Instead, but now it's going to someone who is not declaring it, all be it is a competent as fitter.But the problem lies in finding ethical employees when there are bills to be paid and mouths to feed.
It is bad enough as it is now where there is a minor disincentive to doing (at least new installs) work on their own but doing that would make every employee essentially a free agent with nothing to stop them other than "ethics" and the slight chance the tax man may catch up. The same ethics that stop them robbing your pipe and scrapping it given half the chance.
It will never happen.
Derek, how much an average competent gas fitter employee would earn in your opinion! Would you not say average ÂŁ500 pw?If people dont earn enough in their regular job they should change jobs or cut their cloth accordingly, to do foreigners illegally is greedy and not too bright.
Derek, how much an average competent gas fitter employee would earn in your opinion! Would you not say average ÂŁ500 pw?
There will be sole traders who at times don't earn half that! My mate has gone working for local council, he starts 7:00 am and usually done by 3:00pm. He clears ÂŁ600 pw after tax and all he does all day along is gas rating appliances! Without generalising, I would say the majority who do extra curriculum work is due to loos-end cash. Call it holiday money, *** money or beer money. For that reason most of these activities are either not entirely legal or in some cases, as its been mentioned, is darn illegal. The L56 creates the ground work for all this activity. If they get Gas Safe Registered, they would then have to register the boiler with GSR, and of course there is always a chance it gets picked up by the HMRC. Well the rest of us walk the walk, why can't they all!It varies massively, but given the timescale for the jobs, they should be very well paid, plus the bonus payments for extra works.
There are much truth in what you say. Implementation wise, some methods are more difficult than others, educating people I agree with, I'm chasing GSR constantly on that but I get a feeling there is much politics and scandals when Capita is brought into the equation. Even if you do educate people, there's are over 70 millions living in the UK, questions is will utilising the cost and resource to educate that number of people give a viable result! I am not sure if it will. Regulating engineers is another method which is pursued by HSE currently, we've always read the cases in gas engineers magazine, but is the result satisfactory! Over 250,000 illegals gas works but 50 successful prosecution! And most of them are GSRed guys! So you see, the only other option left is reform of the legislation. Under current regulation, neither GSR nor HSE will give satisfactory results, that's because their hands are tied by a flawed political set of rules. When you reform you make both friends and enemies just like in any other sector in industry, but as a long term sustainable solution reform is needed.There is one thing we all agree on. You can not carry out gas work unless competent to do so. All GSR registration does is legitimises people employed to do gas work to give the customer assurance that they are safe. All the black market work is not right but does not necessarily make it unsafe. If manufacturer's did more using the guarantee stick that might be a step forward. The final solution is the customers responsibility to employ the right people for the right job. So the long term is education of the general public which is a big part of the GSR remit.
True, but (a) in what ways does my argument take a stance against the big corporation! And (b) I wouldn't exactly underestimate the SMEs in this industry, over 80% of businesses in our line of work are either sole trades or small firms, maybe even a partnership! You know, to an extent, what I say isn't anything new, CORGI used to do a secondary card and I believe GSR has discussed it with the authorities at some level. It is ironic though isn't it that the very regulation that sets out the bar, also goes on to smash the bar to pieces!We are, or i am, only putting across other opinions for the sake of argument that tbh are much less than the powers that be would consider in making judgements.
In principle i agree with what you are trying to do but you have to look at things from a bigger perspective than a one man band. The big employers opinions will always win as they have a bigger shout so if you are to go against them you must have a very strong argument that you can back up.
At the end of the day it is ALL about money.
Reply to Must you be Gas Safe Registered to do Gas installation? Read HSE's response. in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net
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