Must you be Gas Safe Registered to do Gas installation? Read HSE's response.

[Reza]

Please see following, an email which I received from the HSE. Colleagues, we need to make a tough stance in demanding for reassessment of these farcical, non coherent and ineffective regulations. On one hand they say we need NOT be GSRed to do works for friends and family on the other hand they require us to complete the benchmark with full details of GSRed installer!! Please help us stand against these daft rules, sign our petition, let’s take this all the way. Reform Gas Safety in UK Petition

Hi Reza,

Sorry I wasn't able to get back to you last night, but you caught me when I was just on my way out of the office.

In terms of the current definition of competence this is captured in COP 20 (see http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/cop20.pdf) - COP20 will be withdrawn as part of the current ACOP review but will be replaced by industry led guidance.

The majority of this definition has been transferred into the new revised L56 (see para 58 of the revised L56) - so it hasn't really changed as a result of the ACOP review.

As we discussed yesterday - although everyone who carries out gas work needs to be competent (see the new para 57 of the revised L56), only those who are a gas engineering business need to be registered with Gas Safe Register (see paragraphs 65 & 66 of the new revised L56).

This position has not changed as a result of the ACOP review. The underlying legislation (the Gas Safety Installation and Use Regulations) only require gas engineering businesses (which include the self-employed and sole traders) to be competent AND registered (see regulation 3(3)). Those who are not acting as gas engineering businesses (for example DIY, favours fro friends etc) are only required to be competent. They do not need to be GSR registered.

I know that you and your group find this position incongruous - however the legislation (Gas Safety Installation and Use Regulations) are not subject to this review and are not being changed. The Approved Code of Practice and it associated guidance cannot go beyond the scope of the legislation itself, and so we cannot insist that engineers carrying out DIY/favours for friends should be registered as well as competent.

I hope this has helped to explain our current position but if you need anything else then please let me know.

 

[Reza]

 

[Nostrum]

You see, if they actually had any idea about the certification process, this would immediately be dismissed as a chancer not doing his job right.

 

[tamz]

The black economy.
Above would be an instant gross misconduct dismissal if they were caught but it happens constantly all over the country.
The boiler warranty would still stand under statutory law (although the extended part may not) and there are many well known ways around the lack of a gas cert. They are paying the money and taking the gamble. Any one paying for a cash job or work on the side knows (unless they are totally stupid) that it is not legit. They may get a first class job or they may not. They pay the money and take the chancewith the probability of a first class job being very low.
It is wrong and shouldn't happen but for all the government complain about the black economy and how much they loose in taxes they know it serves other purposes and can never be stopped.
This is a customer driven thing. Everyone wants to save a few quid and some will regardless of the consequences so perhaps targeting the consumer and hitting them in the pocket would work best but this would require a change in the law so is unlikely to happen any time soon.

Btw i believe big gas will allow their employees to register work done for themselves or family members under their GSR number but perhaps one of the BG guys could confirm or deny this.

 

[Reza]

Who believes that employees of Gas companies who work under employers registration, should for a nominal fee and full written consent of their employer become GSRed in order to work for family, friends, friends of family, friends of friends, friends of friends of friends!...... Families of friends, families of family!......

 

[tamz]

It won't happen as it would be seen as a way to legitimise taking work from the employer.
Most firms will not allow personal registration for that reason.

 

[Reza]

It won't happen as it would be seen as a way to legitimise taking work from the employer.
Most firms will not allow personal registration for that reason.

Their primary contract lies with their employer, it's only ethical if they respect the terms of their contract. What would you do if an employee of yours poached your customer, all be it their mates and got cash for it! Similar to the cases we have all seen! Are we beginning to see how L56 could not just lead onto illegitimate work and I choose that word carefully, but it opens a narrative to being professionally unethical.

 

[tamz]

But the problem lies in finding ethical employees when there are bills to be paid and mouths to feed.
It is bad enough as it is now where there is a minor disincentive to doing (at least new installs) work on their own but doing that would make every employee essentially a free agent with nothing to stop them other than "ethics" and the slight chance the tax man may catch up. The same ethics that stop them robbing your pipe and scrapping it given half the chance.
It will never happen.

 

[Reza]

But the problem lies in finding ethical employees when there are bills to be paid and mouths to feed.
It is bad enough as it is now where there is a minor disincentive to doing (at least new installs) work on their own but doing that would make every employee essentially a free agent with nothing to stop them other than "ethics" and the slight chance the tax man may catch up. The same ethics that stop them robbing your pipe and scrapping it given half the chance.
It will never happen.

still, doesn't justify breaching your contract though. I hate the big corporation as much as anyone, but an employment agreement is still a valid document and legally binding. There are also lots of smaller firms who employ people! More to the point, it's unethical because I or you or another sole trader could have had that job. Instead, but now it's going to someone who is not declaring it, all be it is a competent as fitter.

 

[Derek Hardman]

If people dont earn enough in their regular job they should change jobs or cut their cloth accordingly, to do foreigners illegally is greedy and not too bright.

 

[Reza]

If people dont earn enough in their regular job they should change jobs or cut their cloth accordingly, to do foreigners illegally is greedy and not too bright.

Derek, how much an average competent gas fitter employee would earn in your opinion! Would you not say average £500 pw?

 

[Derek Hardman]

It varies massively, but given the timescale for the jobs, they should be very well paid, plus the bonus payments for extra works.

 

[tamz]

Ive yet to meet any tradesman who ever considered their contract when it came to feeding their family or paying their bills.
Are you an employer or do you work on your own?
Ii'm an employer and would not allow anyone who worked for me to hold their own registration. Why would they need it when they shouldn't be doing work outside their place of employment taking potential customers from me. It still goes on but there is a slight disincentive in that they can't register it but no way am i going to legitimise it for them and make it easy.
Your idea falls at the first hurdle and will never gain any backing.
Be careful what you wish for.

Derek
People never make enough money at their day job and will always make more if they can especially when they have a skill set that is in demand. It is the way of the world and if you are any different you are one of a rare breed.

The only way to stop gas work being done on the side is to target the consumer and hit them in the pocket if they knowingly employ an unregistered person to carry out regulated work.

 

[tamz]

Derek, how much an average competent gas fitter employee would earn in your opinion! Would you not say average £500 pw?

The official rate is £11.51/hr for a 37.5 hr week.
£435.08 at the top take home £341.60

Piece work varies by how fast or rough they are

Welcome to the real world.

I'm sorry the rate is £11.32/hr
£428.27 at the top take home £337.17 (with class D and industry pension contributions)

 

[Reza]

It varies massively, but given the timescale for the jobs, they should be very well paid, plus the bonus payments for extra works.

There will be sole traders who at times don't earn half that! My mate has gone working for local council, he starts 7:00 am and usually done by 3:00pm. He clears £600 pw after tax and all he does all day along is gas rating appliances! Without generalising, I would say the majority who do extra curriculum work is due to loos-end cash. Call it holiday money, *** money or beer money. For that reason most of these activities are either not entirely legal or in some cases, as its been mentioned, is darn illegal. The L56 creates the ground work for all this activity. If they get Gas Safe Registered, they would then have to register the boiler with GSR, and of course there is always a chance it gets picked up by the HMRC. Well the rest of us walk the walk, why can't they all!

 

[tamz]

Btw there is no legal requirement to register anything through gas safe. It is just easier and good customer relations to do it that way. The onus is on the consumer to register it with building control.