How to learn more advanced plumbing installations.

[spikewt]

At the risk of being slated for asking, Im wandering how plumbers advance to more complex systems.

I've been a plumber for 12 years, self employed for 5 and at almost 30 years old i feel like i know a fair bit about general plumbing and heating (but very very far from everything). I start to get out of my depth when things go bigger than an average system but still domestic.
For example, a 6 bed house with 2 boilers, 2 underfloor heating manifolds and 2 unvented cylinders. I have never been taught about low loss headers, accumulators, water flow rates and large system designing.

Is this something you just have to dive into with the basic knowledge and teach yourself as time goes on, have manufacturers design them and you just fit what they say or is there a training course.

 

[SimonG]

Get somebody in to work with you who has done it. Yes, you will not make as much, but the increase in knowledge will be invaluable.

 

[wetdrip]

At the risk of being slated for asking, Im wandering how plumbers advance to more complex systems.

I've been a plumber for 12 years, self employed for 5 and at almost 30 years old i feel like i know a fair bit about general plumbing and heating (but very very far from everything). I start to get out of my depth when things go bigger than an average system but still domestic.
For example, a 6 bed house with 2 boilers, 2 underfloor heating manifolds and 2 unvented cylinders. I have never been taught about low loss headers, accumulators, water flow rates and large system designing.

Is this something you just have to dive into with the basic knowledge and teach yourself as time goes on, have manufacturers design them and you just fit what they say or is there a training course.

My nippers fears the same, as some of the threads and post replies on here leave him bamboozled, as the seriously knowledgeable even disagree.
He say's to me, "You sure this is plumbing they're talking about?"
Cracks me up.

 

[SimonG]

Everybody knew nothing, once upon a time

 

[IDCHAPPY]

You are starting to venture into design theory and stuff, maybe see about an HNC/D is heating design?

 

[kris]

The Facebook forums are really good for that, the amount I've learned about design and I bought a new book which is brill
CIBSE Domestic Heating Design Guide

you won't manage to buy the book from there unless your hetas but you'll get it else where,

 

[hammers4spanner]

If you have only ever done domestic and earnt good coin I wouldn't worry about bigger stuff . Bigger stuff normally means bigger grief often involves contract agreements and God forbid if you have a sizeable leak.
I use to get endless emails from mechanical engineers to fit this and that was all a headache nth.

All I want to do now is repair drippy taps for single women and drink tea still pays good

 

[leethegasman]

At the risk of being slated for asking, Im wandering how plumbers advance to more complex systems.

I've been a plumber for 12 years, self employed for 5 and at almost 30 years old i feel like i know a fair bit about general plumbing and heating (but very very far from everything). I start to get out of my depth when things go bigger than an average system but still domestic.
For example, a 6 bed house with 2 boilers, 2 underfloor heating manifolds and 2 unvented cylinders. I have never been taught about low loss headers, accumulators, water flow rates and large system designing.

Is this something you just have to dive into with the basic knowledge and teach yourself as time goes on, have manufacturers design them and you just fit what they say or is there a training course.

I have done lots of five six bedroom homes over the years on new builds your supplied drawings but once you have been doing it for a bit you can have a quick look at the drawing and install no problem.The last five years I have been doing all my own private work and not felt the need for any drawings or help in design.I personally have never had a problem with the installation side of things (and that sounds like the point you are at confident at carrying out the work however big the installation but unsure on design)
And there is a massive difference in say a five bed home with a build cost of say 200 thousand most installers could design and install.
I had a project that was offered to me last year which I took on it was only a five bedroom home I was confident with the installation side of things as I was industrial as well.But I felt the design side of things was out my depth so so a mechanical designer was employed to do a set of drawings pipe sizes etc.But I would say that even when you get some one to do the drawings have a input as I did not agree with some of the pipe work layout and controls for the plant room and once I put my point across he agreed and changed.
The size of the project was 3000 meters of under floor heating pipe work,six underfloor heating manifolds,700 meters of rehau pipe work and fittings from 16mm to 63mm (very good product for bigger projects)
200 meters of copper from 10mm to 67mm,30 meters of rehau rauvitherm (very good product) two 300 litre buffer vessels,two 400 litre DHW cylinders,boiler,two ASHP,eight bathrooms/cloakrooms,plus swimming pool shower room,gym boiler ufh and shower room,boosted cold water tanks pumps,rainwater harvesting,
This project was a 2.4 million build cost which I was aware of from the start and when I had the drawings I found it hard to produce a quote from the drawing I was up front with the customer that the design and the quoting of projects this size was out my scope but the customer wanted me to carry out the installation as I had done a number of smaller projects for him over the years and agreed to pay me my day rate for the project and it has worked out well for both of us.
But I could see that if your project is of a similar size and you need to quote and be in a contract you could get in a bit of a mess regarding under pricing getting the right kind of labour if the project moves quicker than you can cope with.
Hope this helps you I know it's a bit long winded answer.

On the flip side if you make a good job on the bigger projects you can get a lot of interest from other bigger projects.
I was offered a couple of other builds in the same area one was 4.8 m build cost over two years but I turned them down did not won't being tied up to one job for long period again.
The other was if I needed good quality labour where do I get it from.
But I can see that the bigger jobs can be more profitable if you have the correct quoting skills for the bigger projects.good contract,labour,and most important,payment system.

 

[stevetheplumber]

its a gradual process for most of us biggest ive done was a sports hall with fan coils and rads around the perimiter think it was 68k at the time but that was all specced up for me so just a case of fitting it
done a few big houses over the years one had two andrews heaters just for the kitchens never had no training for bigger stuf but just researched it at the time and got advice from people i knew sometimes you can just use experience to up size something you did before that workedpipe sizing can be done just looking at the square area of the relative pipes ie you get 3x 15 out of a 22etc

 

[wetdrip]

I have done lots of five six bedroom homes over the years on new builds your supplied drawings but once you have been doing it for a bit you can have a quick look at the drawing and install no problem.The last five years I have been doing all my own private work and not felt the need for any drawings or help in design.I personally have never had a problem with the installation side of things (and that sounds like the point you are at confident at carrying out the work however big the installation but unsure on design)
And there is a massive difference in say a five bed home with a build cost of say 200 thousand most installers could design and install.
I had a project that was offered to me last year which I took on it was only a five bedroom home I was confident with the installation side of things as I was industrial as well.But I felt the design side of things was out my depth so so a mechanical designer was employed to do a set of drawings pipe sizes etc.But I would say that even when you get some one to do the drawings have a input as I did not agree with some of the pipe work layout and controls for the plant room and once I put my point across he agreed and changed.
The size of the project was 3000 meters of under floor heating pipe work,six underfloor heating manifolds,700 meters of rehau pipe work and fittings from 16mm to 63mm (very good product for bigger projects)
200 meters of copper from 10mm to 67mm,30 meters of rehau rauvitherm (very good product) two 300 litre buffer vessels,two 400 litre DHW cylinders,boiler,two ASHP,eight bathrooms/cloakrooms,plus swimming pool shower room,gym boiler ufh and shower room,boosted cold water tanks pumps,rainwater harvesting,
This project was a 2.4 million build cost which I was aware of from the start and when I had the drawings I found it hard to produce a quote from the drawing I was up front with the customer that the design and the quoting of projects this size was out my scope but the customer wanted me to carry out the installation as I had done a number of smaller projects for him over the years and agreed to pay me my day rate for the project and it has worked out well for both of us.
But I could see that if your project is of a similar size and you need to quote and be in a contract you could get in a bit of a mess regarding under pricing getting the right kind of labour if the project moves quicker than you can cope with.
Hope this helps you I know it's a bit long winded answer.

On the flip side if you make a good job on the bigger projects you can get a lot of interest from other bigger projects.
I was offered a couple of other builds in the same area one was 4.8 m build cost over two years but I turned them down did not won't being tied up to one job for long period again.
The other was if I needed good quality labour where do I get it from.
But I can see that the bigger jobs can be more profitable if you have the correct quoting skills for the bigger projects.good contract,labour,and most important,payment system.

Great post.

 

[spikewt]

Thanks alot for the advice.
Leethegasman- that job sounds way way way out of my depth but what an amazing opportunity to do something like that. I imagine I will hit 60 and not even come close to that level of installation.

The job I have looked at is simple compared to that. The house has 2 saunier duval 30kw system boilers side by side but independent. 1 runs the underfloor and the other runs the rads up stairs and 2x250ltr cylinders.
Now ideally he wants 2 new boilers but connected so they run together sharing the load.
I haven't figured out yet whether to advise on keeping it the same but with new boilers or join them together or just get a 60kw boiler but as I can see, the last 2 options will require the LLH and extra pumps.

 

[stratplus]

Great post.

That last one sounds like my place ;