CO Alarm Activated

[bewsh]

Hi guys,

I work for a manufacturer and got called to a job today under warranty as the customer had reported co alarm going off, just want to get your opinion and how you would have acted on the situation...

So, alarm goes off, they call transco out who cap the gas off at the meter and say that the "dark stains" above the boiler as strong signs of carbon monoxide - these "dark stains" turned out to be shadows lol.

Anyway, so I arrive this morning, first job of the day. First thing I do is purge my analyser outside in fresh air and then do a room CO check with the gas still capped at the meter, so no appliances running. It peaked at 60ppm in the back end of the house, and I was getting about 37ppm at the front.

I reconnected the gas and put the boiler on full rate with the case on and rechecked the CO in the room, there was no movement. So I continued to carry out all safety checks on the boiler and confirmed the safety of the appliance. As I work for a boiler manufacturer, I haven't got other appliances on my ticket so I was unable to test them.

But I was concerned as I was picking up 60ppm in the house with no appliances running. I spoke to my lead engineer who found a document saying that if you find between 30-100ppm in the house then you have to evacuate property and a gas operative can investigate for 30mins. And anything greater than 100ppm, you should not enter property.

It then goes on to say that if you are finding CO with no appliances running then you should call the esp, which I did after recapping the gas supply, assuming they'd have CO detectors to try and trace the cause. But apparently they don't do anything with CO and don't have detectors, there was no answer at the neighbours so they capped their gas as a precaution.

The guy from transco then wanted me to come and reconnect their gas as I said the boiler was ok. I said that I'm not reconnecting the gas as I'm not able to test the other appliances and also I am unsure of where the CO is coming from.

Then the customer phoned in to the office saying that the transco guy has capped off the other appliances, except for the boiler and the customer wants me to come back to reconnect gas. Again, I refused to do so as I'm not sure where the source of the CO is from.

I spoke to my lead engineer again as the office were pestering me to go back and have another look, but he said not to bother as it's not a warranty issue and they need to get someone in with the CMDDA1 qualification so they can trace this CO issue and resolve.

Would you guys have reconnected the gas for them, or left is disconnected? How would you have acted?

Sorry for the long thread, hope you enjoyed the read as it's been a pain in the arse day with that job!

Thanks in advance

 

[gassafe]

Something isn't right to be licking up those figures surely!

Is it a flat? Maybe a boiler below or flue in void, or are busy road outside?

Sound like the homeowner needs an engineer who can check all appliances?

 

[hammers4spanner]

I didn't think we investigate those types of incidents always thought it was more specialist?

Either way would of left it capped

 

[stani]

I was like you, under the impression that Transco(provider) were all CMDDA1 qualified to investigate CO incidents, perhaps the GSR could give some input and let us all know what needs to be done.
Wholeheartedly agree with your actions, especially the readings with no appliances running.

 

[mfgs]

You have done the right thing, but it sounds like someone needs to get to the bottom of it ASAP. The CO must be coming from somewhere and it cant be from an appliance in the property you were in if the gas was capped when you tested it.

 

[bewsh]

It was an end of terrace bungalow, quiet cul de sac. Checked emissions outside property and they went down, checked back inside property and up they went.

Nah apparently they don't have CO detectors and all they do in CO incidents is isolate gas as it's nothing to do with them. The transco engineer didn't seem too bright mind, he told me not to worry about the 60ppm as it won't cause any issue, and it'll only be dangerous if its around 13500 ppm concentration... I was like, I don't think thats right...

I've told the customer that they need to get someone in to check it and I won't be turning the gas back on. But they keep ringing the office to get me back. And the transco guy isn't helping situations by capping the other appliances off and telling them the boilers safe so they can uncap it now...

 

[bewsh]

And I know my analyser is good as literally got a new one back from calibration yesterday!

 

[Stoney Ground]

I used to work for a company who built and installed direct fired warm air heaters, and in an open area (warehouse) the limit was 280ppm.

 

[stani]

Someone needs to tell the numbnut transco that 13500 is just slightly over the 12800 which results in death in 3 minutes.

 

[stani]

Level of CO Health Effects, and Other Information
0 PPM Normal, fresh air.
9 PPM Maximum recommended indoor CO level (ASHRAE).
10-24 PPM Possible health effects with long-term exposure.
25 PPM Max TWA Exposure for 8 hour work-day (ACGIH).
Pocket CO TWA warning sounds each hour.
50 PPM Maximum permissible exposure in workplace (OSHA).
First Pocket CO ALARM starts (optional, every 20 seconds).
100 PPM Slight headache after 1-2 hours.
125 PPM Second Pocket CO ALARM starts (every 10 seconds).
200 PPM Dizziness, naseau, fagitue, headache after 2-3 hours of exposure.
400 PPM Headache and nausea after 1-2 hours of exposure.
Life threatening in 3 hours.
Third Pocket CO ALARM starts (every 5 seconds).
800 PPM Headache, nausea, and dizziness after 45 minutes; collapse and unconsciousness after 1 hour of exposure.
Death within 2-3 hours.
1000 PPM Loss of consciousness after 1 hour of exposure.
1600 PPM Headache, nausea, and dizziness after 20 minutes of exposure.
Death within 1-2 hours.
3200 PPM Headache, nausea, and dizziness after 5-10 minutes; collapse and unconsciousness after 30 minutes of exposure.
Death within 1 hour.
6400 PPM Death within 30 minutes.
12,800 PPM Immediate physiological effects, unconsciousness.
Death within 1-3 minutes of exposure.

 

[gassafe]

I used to work for a company who built and installed direct fired warm air heaters, and in an open area (warehouse) the limit was 280ppm.

Few headaches in the warehouse then :/

 

[JAH HEATING]

You can't touch it if you haven't got your cmdda1.

You need a Kane 457 to measure ambient air, 455s don't do this.

If you come across with any alarms going off, cap off an ring supplier. Don't do anything else

 

[JAH HEATING]

You have done the right thing, but it sounds like someone needs to get to the bottom of it ASAP. The CO must be coming from somewhere and it cant be from an appliance in the property you were in if the gas was capped when you tested it.

You check for ingress coming from adjacent properties.

 

[newcastle phill]

Read somewhere allowed upto 10ppm over an 8 hour period by the WHO.

Personally didnt realise Paul Weller did gas

 

[Aquazone]

ESP do have engineers who have CMDDA1 as I went round to a job my mate was on. Exactly same as yours, CO alarm activated, capped off, he went round checked boiler, hob and gas fire.

All working perfectly. He had about 100ppm CO near the front of the house, no appliances running.

He then went outside to recalibrate FGA and the CO went up to 200ppm. Went down the street, dropped to nothing, recalibrate again, went back and 200ppm almost outside the house. No flues on houses at front, no busy road, just a normal street.

Called ESP and after a bit of to and fro, got the right chap out who also involved Enviromental Health who relocated my mates customer and the people either side.

His initial feeling was it was something in the drainage/sewage underground or a gas build up but said it would need digging to investigate. I never did find out what it was in the end, sorry!

 

[bewsh]

I thought they would have had some one who would deal with CO - but the guy was convinced they didn't. He even spoke to his boss about it, and he confirmed that it's nothing to do with them.

I've got a mate who works for BG and I know they have a team which do CO investigations, so I recommended the customer to get in touch with them and get them out to investigate properly.

 

[Pssst]

National Grid (not Transco) ,do not engage in CMDDA1 activities and do not have it on their registration cards.

NG Engineers are equipped with an atmospheric monitor which is calibrated to measure CH4/O2/CO. It is not intended for use to test appliances but to trace gas escapes and monitor the air for CO and O2 deficiency.

The procedure they practice for verified FULL alarm conditions is the take actions to preserve life, the isolate the supply in the affected property and if necessary, isolate the supply in neighbouring connected properties i.e adjoining semi or terrace(s).

It is then for the owners of those properties to engage a GSR who has the necessary ticket endorsements to check those appliances/installations.

CO alarms are a nightmare as they can false trigger/battery fail/whatever.. If a punter calls with a full alarm, they will get cut off, rain/shine or snow.

 

[kirkgas]

It is perfectly acceptable to visit a property after co activation with core and appliances, CMDDA1 is not needed for this visit
First question on the door step "any co symptoms"? If yes cap gas, ventilate and send them for co test, if they confirm co then it's an investigation, CMDDA1 isn't enough to investigate confirmed co
If they come back with no co or say no symptoms on the door step then core and appliances is enough to check trace and deal with faulty appliance, if co is found but cannot be traced it goes to cmdda1 for investigation

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

Visited a fire for BFM in warranty today,BG turned off through signs of spillage,burner picture not right etc,changed the burner and injector and Gas Rated it ,sorted flame picture ,passed spillage,but i noted condensate was forming on the top of the back panel,so put my fga there and got 25 ppm,isolated and kicked it back to the installer,looked like poor sealing around the plate,no gas iso on appliance and air relief cut to suit gas pipe

 

[stani]

Kirkgas, is it just any engineer then with cmdda1, that can do the investigation, he doesn't necessarily need to work for BG, NG etc, I.e. A small firm with an engineer with relevant can do the investigation

 

[JAH HEATING]

Anyone with cmdda1 can do the investigation.

 

[stani]

Even if the CO causes fatalities?

 

[REDSAW]

Even if the CO causes fatalities?

after undertakers called

 

[Pssst]

If there are fatalities then it would be a RIDDOR/notifiable to HSE wouldnt it ?