Asbestos flue on Warm Air

[northeastsun]

I recently called a local gas engineer to service my warm air heating and issue a new gas safety certificate.
One of the engineers put a smoke pellet into the heating system and looked into the loft.
He came down saying there was some smoke escaping into the loft from the flue somewhere in the flue joints and that the flue is asbestos and must be removed and replaced in order to issue a certificate.
The engineers said they can arrange an asbestos removal firm they know who can remove it and that after they would put a new flue running from the warm air heater to the roof.

I didn't see the asbestos flue when they were looking but the property was built in the early 70's and when I had the warm air unit replaced in 2007 (different installer) it was attached to the existing flue so I would imagine its highly probable that the flue does indeed contain asbestos.
If there is indeed smoke coming from somewhere like the joints in the flue might it be safer to seal the joints with something?

I am a bit concerned as there are people living in the property and I thought asbestos should generally not be disturbed.
Does anyone have any opinions as to whether this should be removed and replaced or its it best to arrange for the joints on the existing flue to be checked and sealed?

Merry Christmas

 

[LPC]

Asbestos is generally not dangerous unless it is broken in some way, and even then the kind found in domestic situations you'd need to huff a fair lot of it to harm you.
Most engineers have removed loads of asbestos flues. They are fairly common on older open-flued gas boilers. It's generally very easy to remove the flues without breaking them, although I generally do wear a dust mask just in case.

There are various things eg; fire cement that can be used to seal certain things on flues but it depends on how by the book your engineer is and obviously without looking it's hard to gauge how serious the issue is or how hard it is to remove the flue without damaging it.

Maybe try a second opinion? Although warm air guys are usually pretty hard to find.

 

[Rickster123]

Shouldn't the new warm air unit fitted in 2007 have been fitted with a new flue??

 

[newcastle phill]

The control of asbestos regs 2012 make it difficult to remove asbestos if your not trained to do so.
What if the removal goes pear shaped and its dispersed into the atmosphere.
HsE would hammer you.

Didnt the engineer give detailed info re the leak and condition of the flue.
Perhaps he deems a repair to risky bearing in mind the age of it and potential for further leakage ??

Im not warm air, but those i do know who do it hate it lol

 

[Ermintrude]

It's xmas . There will be lots of warm air systems available shortly.... Cadburys roses tin and some candelabra?

 

[LPC]

The control of asbestos regs 2012 make it difficult to remove asbestos if your not trained to do so.
What if the removal goes pear shaped and its dispersed into the atmosphere.
HsE would hammer you.

You can add asbestos removal costs to your quotes but i'll keep removing them without breaking them at all and disposing of them in the correct manner (my local tip has an asbestos section).

 

[newcastle phill]

If your trained fair enough

 

[AWheating]

If you follow the hse guidelines you should be fine. they require you to have the proper vac, sealed ppe, bags, room tent/ sealing stuff etc.... if you dont follow the recommended systems of work and contaminate something then it will cost you alot of money or worse.

The issue is not what harm it can cause you, but others. You can easily put your customer and family at risk if you cause fibres to enter the air or take it home on your clothing.

if your charging for asbestos removal then just pay a certified company and keep your receipt to protect yourself of comebacks.

 

[northeastsun]

The control of asbestos regs 2012 make it difficult to remove asbestos if your not trained to do so.
What if the removal goes pear shaped and its dispersed into the atmosphere.
HsE would hammer you.

Didnt the engineer give detailed info re the leak and condition of the flue.
Perhaps he deems a repair to risky bearing in mind the age of it and potential for further leakage ??

Im not warm air, but those i do know who do it hate it lol

No the the engineer didn't give a details report just said that thought there was a leak in a joint, and that because its an asbestos flue it has to come out anyway and be replaced.
He said he knows some contractors that specialise in removing it, but they are funny and won't liaise with the customer at all only him and then they will invoice me. So I know nothing about the asbestos contractors, i had worried this might be an indication that the flue might end up in a farmers field somewhere but perhaps I am just being paranoid.

 

[Dotty]

You'd be best listening to your gut and getting a second opinion.

 

[Neil K]

As per Croppie. If it is asbestos and if it needs to be removed then it has to be done by a licensed contractor

 

[Mike Jackson]

No the the engineer didn't give a details report just said that thought there was a leak in a joint, and that because its an asbestos flue it has to come out anyway and be replaced.
He said he knows some contractors that specialise in removing it, but they are funny and won't liaise with the customer at all only him and then they will invoice me. So I know nothing about the asbestos contractors, i had worried this might be an indication that the flue might end up in a farmers field somewhere but perhaps I am just being paranoid.

If it's only a leaking joint it may be possible to re seal it with fire cement. I'd certainly give it a go before recommending that the entire flue is replaced. Get a second opinion.

 

[tamz]

As Mike said get a second opinion. It doesn't need to be replaced just because it is made of asbestos if it is otherwise sound.

If you need a bit asbestos rope i might have some lying around lol.

 

[jtsplumbing]

There were other materials on the market that looked like asbestos, was a cement product, if its just leaking joints, remove old jointing product and re-seal

 

[DaveTidy]

There were other materials on the market that looked like asbestos, was a cement product, if its just leaking joints, remove old jointing product and re-seal

I might be reading this wrong? are you advising everyone to remove the jointing material without understanding whether the joint is packed with asbestos rope or a neutral composite? Surely a test first by a licensed contractor which can be found here Asbestos Removal Contractors Association - ARCA is the best course of action.

When I used to work on warm air systems flue joints normally became weaker or compromised as the flue pipe was not supported right or the ridge tile became loose e.g. the ridge tile gasket used to disintegrate and make the tile loose or the whole flue was connected to the tile with plastic ridge bolts which would become brittle and snap making the 'Y' piece adaptor drop and break all the joints.

As for removing the whole flue and 100% asbestos rope within most of the joints, not spilling a fibre within the loftspace, clothing or discharging to air, good luck. Never understood what the benefits are to taking the risk?

 

[Bolty123]

I can only echo what just been said whenever I have found an asbestos flue to be leaking from joints it is because there has been some movement in the flue not just random leakage from joints.

 

[tamz]

No point in getting it tested. It will have asbestos rope in the joints as it was put in in the 70's
Something to read for the uninitiated
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/a35.pdf

 

[DaveTidy]

I agree there's no point in a test but it has been said that there are neutral substances out there; it was just to say that if you are in any doubt, always get it tested.

The sheet you have linked to is very comprehensive. Got to admit that I and many others still wouldn't do it due to the fact you can get 5 million fibres on a pin head; still don't agree that you can guarantee to keep them all protected when 1 single fibre is enough to cause you to have the disease.

I guess we all take our choices but does the guy that removes the asbestos and takes it to his local tip really follow all the guidelines on the sheet and own an H type VAC?

What are the advantages for the engineer in taking a risk which could also put his/her family at risk if on overalls?

 

[tamz]

Fibre rope (and plastic bolts) weren't used until the 80's.

I must have billions of them fibres in me then as i fitted them and worse. I'm still here........for now but i agree, don't take un necessary risks with yourself or others for the sake of a few quid.

 

[DaveTidy]

Hi Tamz
I too worked on asbestos without all the facts from the company and probably have all the undesirables in me and the rest is all down to luck. That said, I have a couple of friends that aren't here to tell the tale that have passed with this disease so clearly get a bit tetchy with it and angry as I wasn't told until after I'd worked on it for a few years.

I see no benefits to us engineers taking any personal risk or to customers or even our families and kids; it still makes me cringe when I think of the examples of peoples kids who died because they used to get bounced up and down on the overalls when the Dad goes home from work.

As regards when the gaskets and bolts were made, I worked and live near two estates locally which were both built in the 70's and both have warm airs, circulators, asbestos flues, rope gaskets and plastic ridge bolts; I know as I changed most of them in an exercise back in the eighties and nineties (lucky old me now!).

Sorry if I was a bit blunt, just a sore subject and cheesed off that now the knowledge is out there I would steer clear of it, just wish we had that knowledge when I started!!

 

[tamz]

We used rhone bolts and penny washers :smile:

I agree there is no need for people to take risks anymore as we did through lack of knowledge.
All the information is out there for free if you look. Here is a good place to start. Lots of stuff on here.
HSE - Asbestos: Asbestos essentials

 

[northeastsun]

Thanks for the replies, I ended up getting a 2nd opinion from a gas engineer who had been practicing for a good while who felt that it was a bad idea to replace the flue without getting a specialist to confirm that it is indeed asbestos although given the date of build it could well be. He checked the flue and felt that any joint leaks could be sealed safely as it was structurally sound.
I was a little concerned about the first contractors asbestos removal guys originally as the first engineer said they like to stay anonymous and refuse to deal with the end client (property owners) leading me to suspect that it might end up in a farmers field, it happens regularly around my area too which is close to the town centre. So feel better to have err'd on the side of caution.

 

[Rickster123]

Thanks for the update northeastsun