Advice on a good boiler

[ceedy]

Having spent hard cash recently to have new control box and gas valve on our our old House warmer back boiler and its worked ok for 3 months then control box packed up again . arghh! always the same transisitor keeps blowing .

I'm going to bite the bullet and have another new ? boiler in .

The holding factor on this has been the 15mm feed , the distance from the meter and the house full of solid floors and cross boarded upstairs .
And the probable need for a new 22mm feed .
I've have worked out a route to cause least damage to the decoration.

So thorny question.. what is a GOOD relaible BOILER ! ,

4 bedrooms. 1 bathroom, 3 other rooms , currently been running well for years on a 55k BTU thorn house warmer back boiler .

Would prefer to keep the tank , and run a condensing boiler ? .

Been offered free a Potterton Profile 100e in working order? this has been running in a slighter larger home , with ther 15 feed . ok. but is 2nd hand ! .

Anyone got suggestions as to a reliable make ??.

Chris

 

[doitmyself]

The first thing to do is find out what size boiler you really need!

The easiest way to do this is to use the Boiler Size Calculator

As for the gas pipe size, my son had a similar problem to you - back boiler fed by a pipe under a concrete floor from a meter on the other side of the house. The new boiler was to be installed in the bedroom airing cupboard, above the alcove to the right of the boiler. The only bit of gas pipe visible was a 15mm to the old boiler/fire. The installer extended this vertically using 22mm to the new location. The gas pressure was OK.

 

[migoplumber]

i'd upgrade the gas supply to 22mm, then you have full choice of boilers on the market, and you will know whichever boiler you put in it will work correctly.
in my house i have a remeha. there are lots of good boilers out there. dont be sold by guarantees though.

 

[Puddle]

The only bit of gas pipe visible was a 15mm to the old boiler/fire. The installer extended this vertically using 22mm to the new location. .

You should not increase the pipe size in a run, only decrease, therefore you should not be going from 15mm to 22mm up wall to newly sited boiler, it can be dangerous, the bigger the pipe size increase and the longer the run,the more dangerous it can be

Do not think anyone is going to advise you to put a second hand non condensing boiler in

However some boilers to look at are

Worchester,vaillant,advanta,baxi,even stick the ideal classic he in there as old system ,only 'B' efficiency though.

Think you are making the right move in re placing your back boiler,was going to mention before but you had already spent alot of money on pcb,think it has served you well though

 

[oldplumber]

for avanta read broag/remeha lovlee boilers

 

[Blackcatgas]

You should not increase the pipe size in a run, only decrease, therefore you should not be going from 15mm to 22mm up wall to newly sited boiler, it can be dangerous, the bigger the pipe size increase and the longer the run,the more dangerous it can be

Do not think anyone is going to advise you to put a second hand non condensing boiler in

However some boilers to look at are

Worchester,vaillant,advanta,baxi,even stick the ideal classic he in there as old system ,only 'B' efficiency though.

Think you are making the right move in re placing your back boiler,was going to mention before but you had already spent alot of money on pcb,think it has served you well though

And Iam sure that our acs tutor told us you could?
Sorry to hijack the thread, Puddle whats wrong with going from 15mm up to 22mm? never done it but Ive always wondered if you could.

 

[oldplumber]

definite no no, risk of explosive mixture occuring.

 

[migoplumber]

re hi-jacking the thread, i agree with puddle in principle - just good practise.
however oldplumber can i ask you to explain your comment further - for my curiosty. ta.

 

[WHPES]

...........and don't touch Potterton with a bargepole - pile of c**p

 

[garry38]

quote ;;;;;;;;;;;However some boilers to look at are

Worchester,vaillant,advanta,baxi,even stick the ideal classic he in there as old system ,only 'B' efficiency though.


why do i never hear any one mention vokera as a good boiler ....
what do you think of that make of boiler ?

 

[Puddle]

why do i never hear any one mention vokera as a good boiler ....
what do you think of that make of boiler ?

personal opinion only

I think Volkera's are decent enough boilers but would not fit any
In the nineties fitted and looked after loads (DC Tubo's),good boilers,reliable,fitted the new excells,flowmatics and when the original top of range domestic linea came out
See on their web site say heat more than 1.5 million homes,in the nineties was many more than that
But like so many past manufacturers they got to big for their boots and shot them self in the foot
Boiler casings with inspection hole in wrong place,never suppling corrected ones.bringing out a stupid plastic clamped flue,that fell apart just looking at it and a bigger size than all other flues,so you could not do a straight swop,you had to try to make flue hole a bit bigger diameter,hard on ground level,in higher flats,a pain in the bum,move onto a different boiler,different boiler models ,had different pipe orders,then they bring out a boiler with pressure gauge inside boiler!,then they start increasing prices,thinking they can do as they please,ect,ect,engineers left fitting them in droves,sales plunged,it takes a long time for engineers to forget as many manufacturers have found and think Vaillant may find out if not careful

imho

 

[kirkgas]

what explosive mixture can you get in a pipe that is full of gas going from 15mm up to 22mm, i agree it isnt great practice as an appliance may get starved of gas, but was always taught it was a no-no for water due to pressure/flow, but gas expands into the pipe size so it wouldnt be a safety issue as it would only ever be full of gas,

 

[garry38]

personal opinion only

I think Volkera's are decent enough boilers but would not fit any
In the nineties fitted and looked after loads (DC Tubo's),good boilers,reliable,fitted the new excells,flowmatics and when the original top of range domestic linea came out
See on their web site say heat more than 1.5 million homes,in the nineties was many more than that
But like so many past manufacturers they got to big for their boots and shot them self in the foot
Boiler casings with inspection hole in wrong place,never suppling corrected ones.bringing out a stupid plastic clamped flue,that fell apart just looking at it and a bigger size than all other flues,so you could not do a straight swop,you had to try to make flue hole a bit bigger diameter,hard on ground level,in higher flats,a pain in the bum,move onto a different boiler,different boiler models ,had different pipe orders,then they bring out a boiler with pressure gauge inside boiler!,then they start increasing prices,thinking they can do as they please,ect,ect,engineers left fitting them in droves,sales plunged,it takes a long time for engineers to forget as many manufacturers have found and think Vaillant may find out if not careful

imho

I fit the vokera linea he all the time and would recommend it to anyone it is a really good boiler.
I have the standard efficient linea in my own home and it has been almost trouble free.
I just have never heard anyone on this site mention vokera as a good boiler when infact the lnea he is as good as any on the market including worcester and vailiant etc

 

[ceedy]

Good stack of replies thanks.. regards the pottyten !!

the one I've been offered is still installed and working( house being demolished soon),
been in for lotsa years? with no breakdowns ?, but even if very reliable its probably had the best of it gone now ..LOL.

Started ruining the decoration for the new 22mm run. recon the hardest part will be putting the flue throught the 28 inch hamstone wall. ;-)


Been looking at lotsa setups including Alpha's flowsmart.not cheap but you only do a boiler install a few times ,I won't be doing it again in my lifetime !! so best do it right now.

Whatever the plumbers/installers have in their own homes would seem a good start ?

Chris.

 

[Blackcatgas]

Good stack of replies thanks.. regards the pottyten !!

the one I've been offered is still installed and working( house being demolished soon),
been in for lotsa years? with no breakdowns ?, but even if very reliable its probably had the best of it gone now ..LOL.

Started ruining the decoration for the new 22mm run. recon the hardest part will be putting the flue throught the 28 inch hamstone wall. ;-)


Been looking at lotsa setups including Alpha's flowsmart.not cheap but you only do a boiler install a few times ,I won't be doing it again in my lifetime !! so best do it right now.

Whatever the plumbers/installers have in their own homes would seem a good start ?

Chris.

Hi Chris, I rarely come across any combi boilers older than 15yrs.
I like Viessmann btw. I Have a vaillant 831 in my own home.

 

[stevetheplumber]

definite no no, risk of explosive mixture occuring.

can you explain how this explosive mixture is created as most meter conections are 22mm and are often uprated to 28 or even 35 if your reply is going to say its ok for a short length can you quote the regualtion that specifys the max length of under sized pipework?

 

[unguided1]

advice on a good boiler

Nice to look at
cooks
cleans
dont moan
and renew every 7 years

 

[stevetheplumber]

what explosive mixture can you get in a pipe that is full of gas going from 15mm up to 22mm, i agree it isnt great practice as an appliance may get starved of gas, but was always taught it was a no-no for water due to pressure/flow, but gas expands into the pipe size so it wouldnt be a safety issue as it would only ever be full of gas,

i agree i cant see any problem as you say probably not best practice but if it gets you the 1mb drop on a run sometimes needs must ive left 10 foot of 22 under a drive and upgraded the remainder of the run
i was actually told at my acs training it didnt matter where you reduced the pipe friction

 

[hamish72]

Just changed my Housewarmer for Vaillant I had the same problems at first with the controller on the HW 55 but after I got 2 spare brand new box,s about 10 years ago it never failed again

I still have those new controllers lurking some where

 

[migoplumber]

i'd still like to learn about explosive mixtures - anyone else care to enlighten me ?

 

[Blackcatgas]

i'd still like to learn about explosive mixtures - anyone else care to enlighten me ?

Mee too !I didnt dare ask about them incase it was somthing that "as a rgi you should know that as its basic stuff get the hell of here ete etc"
Iam sur that I was told that you can upsize the pipe., and even run 2 pipes together say 2 22mms side by side and then even join them at the end in a loop. sort of a "gas ring main" for want of a better discription

 

[ceedy]

Just found I can get a Biasi Riva advance 24HE ? , combi , so not my 1st choice but still from Screwfix via my daughter in law's discount card with 20-25% off . so about 450 quids ?? any good.

Calcs suggest about 17-19 kw needed so my old housewarmer was about right @ 19 kw.ish.

Chris

 

[Blackcatgas]

Just found I can get a Biasi Riva advance 24HE ? , combi , so not my 1st choice but still from Screwfix via my daughter in law's discount card with 20-25% off . so about 450 quids ?? any good.

Calcs suggest about 17-19 kw needed so my old housewarmer was about right @ 19 kw.ish.

Chris

With the £500 youve saved over buying a Vaillant, Viessmann or Worcester you can buy another one when it packs up after 3yrs.
24kw will cover your heating but will give you poor hot water flow rate.

Viessmann Vitodens 100/200 series 30kw.
Vaillant 831 ecotec (31 kw)
Worcester 30 CD1 (30kw).

 

[WHPES]

As an engineer the only reason I can think of against going from narrower pipe to wider for gas is turbulence at the junction. You will only get an explosion if you have an explosive mixture (i.e. gas plus oxidising agent). You won't actually achieve any benefit by increasing diameter after narrower pipe.

 

[doitmyself]

You won't actually achieve any benefit by increasing diameter after narrower pipe.

I would have thought that the pressure drop would be lower with the larger diameter pipe.

 

[ceedy]

Still looking .

As we have a large inglenook fireplace with the Housewamer and fire in place , been looking at the baxi condensing back boiler, seems it might work on the existing gas feed?, but will need a whole new concentric flue line put in.but no major pipework changes , compared to new gas feed and boiler /tank moved upstairs to another room.

Not that happy though with the baxi electric fire fronts they offer , would rather have a stand alone flueless gas fire instead , running off the gas feed ?.

any comments ? .. no too much laughing ?!!

Chris

PS. was looking at Keston ? , just cos they seemed different ,but they seem to have a bad press generally?

 

[WHPES]

I would have thought that the pressure drop would be lower with the larger diameter pipe.

Dynamic pressure (pressure when gas is flowing) is dependent on the section with the greatest friction (usually the narrowest). The wider the pipe diameter, the less the friction.

 

[evsy01]

quote ;;;;;;;;;;;However some boilers to look at are

Worchester,vaillant,advanta,baxi,even stick the ideal classic he in there as old system ,only 'B' efficiency though.


why do i never hear any one mention vokera as a good boiler ....
what do you think of that make of boiler ?

varuka's are not a gd boiler stay well clear! only get 1 if u want some free golf clubs from plumb center

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

definite no no, risk of explosive mixture occuring.

wtf??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????were did you dream that one up??????????????????????????????????????????

...........and don't touch Potterton with a bargepole - pile of c**p

dont put the performas in that category they are not the same as the hundred odd i have fitted testify

 

[Puddle]

Still looking .



PS. was looking at Keston ? , just cos they seemed different ,but they seem to have a bad press generally?

Biasi Riva advance 24HE

working on above ideas how about a

ideal isar

the potterton performer/mains as proved to be a very reliable boiler as said,good purchase price,good to work on,parts reasonable,band 'B' though


imho

 

[pauls]

when you say cant go up in size on gas ive seen a small length of 22mm coming off meter and then going up to 28mm

 

[migoplumber]

as said above, not technically correct, but does decrease pipe friction.

still waiting for an answer as to explosiveness ?!

 

[gakmonkey]

when you say cant go up in size on gas ive seen a small length of 22mm coming off meter and then going up to 28mm

to be fair I have seen a trv on the gas supply to a radiant fire, but it does not make it correct. does no one use 28mm meter unions?

 

[ceedy]

Still not decided yet ??..

But have done all the prep work for the new Pipe feed to the new location in the upstairs cupboard, ripped down new coving cut grooves in walls etc .at least the boiler will be much closer to the main feed/return pipe runs to the Rads, but further from the tank .
The new gas line will be 8.6 metres with 4 or 5 ..90 degree bends ..

But before we go any further, is there any point in going above 22mm ?

I'm getting all the supplies in then getting a goalkeeper to install it all..
My number one son runs the local footy team and the goalie is a Corgi! .

If I can get hold of him , a bit busy will confer with him on this , but its alway better to get lots of Opinions.. oops .. info !!

Chris

---------------------------------------------

I'm thinking a Remada Avanti 24 or 30 System Bolier is the one .. a teeny bit more costly, but longer warranty than most .,?

Seem a reasonable choice ??? then I can chuck the roof tanks etc .. and have more access up there, for more junk

C.

 

[prs1]

sometimes you just dont have any option but too upsize to obtain correct gas flow rates.Yes i know it not best practise but theres times when cost and what is resonably practicable.
I had to do this on an install of a 33kw he combi on a long run,but could not accsess the first 8ft from meter,custard dint want an external run on her 275,000 pound house and she didnt want me chisleing her dining room wall out.
It was were GSR Probationary visit came to and he was quite happy that it was the resonable thing to do after checking the calcs for sizing.
No mention of explosive mixtures though other than the usual 5 to 15 % if i remember right.

 

[ceedy]

Well done the chiseling of the dining room already ,,
And I'm not have an external draped around my nicely point hamstone
either anyhow that would be over 20 meters .

22mm will fit in all the places round/through the beams, but 28mm will be a bit tight with no room for wrapping.

so 22mm it is then , can still use the old 15 mm back boiler feed for a standalone fire in the inglenook.

Chris.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

pipe sizeing is a pain in the axxe l worst run i ever did was 50 ft of 1.1/4 then to inch then 22mm, 2 x 24 kw combis in a pub calcs for 48kw

 

[moony]

as said above, not technically correct, but does decrease pipe friction.

still waiting for an answer as to explosiveness ?!

your not going to get one cos its a load of **** lol

has to be a mixture of gas and air in pipe for explosive reaction - its not going to happen unless the gas valve sucks air in - even then it wouldnt be no where near enough to be explosive as he said

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

thats what i said q, lol? i pixxed my self when i read that

 

[migoplumber]

ceedy, good boiler choice - no need to go above that for any normal domestic situation.
gasman

 

[InterGAS]

I just fitted a Baxi 133HE into the catholic church and it offers perfect hot water, keeping in mind its a priests hotel, well kind of , 6 bedrooms and 6 basins - 5 baths and around 15 rads, not a problem.
Good after sales, cheap parts nice boiler.
If i remember right you can do something with the board to bump it up and extra 20,000 btu without effecting warrenty.
As for pipe sizing you should complete an assesment, taking into account other appliances and your mains gas supply, for example our area is shocking.
you working pressure at the boiler should be 2mbr loss to the valve and MAYBE another 1mbr if your pushing it across the valve body and you can go a bit further is your reading the regs inside and out by getting a poor supply from the street if NGN agree.
28mm I have seen in houses, but 22mm is normal.

why do i never hear any one mention vokera as a good boiler ....
what do you think of that make of boiler ?

Voker compact 29 is a great boiler we fit in the average house, hot water and heating excellent B rated but only because of fan speed, the vokera compact looks better than say baxi duotech and is better!
Only £540 with flue, clock and stat for us, nice package for 1400 supply and fit with 5 year warrenty.
Nothing has ever and will ever beat the Baxi 105 basic combi!
Outstanding!

 

[garry38]

varuka's are not a gd boiler stay well clear! only get 1 if u want some free golf clubs from plumb center

I take it you have never fitted vokera then because if you had you would no that the vokera linea he is an outstanding boiler and as good as any out there it is also a rated and i fit them all the time.
also the vokera compact he is a cracking boiler to fit if you are doing work for someone on a budget but this boiler is b rated.
there is not many who would say STAY WELL CLEAR as i have fitted around 50 vokeras in my time with very little problems

 

[prs1]

Untill you have to buy a board for one,might as well buy a full boiler and break it yer self.

 

[ceedy]

Just Been offered a new unused Ideal Icos 24kw M3080 , with flue kit for £120 ..

well its cheap.. any other plus points ? .

Chris

 

[Puddle]

Just Been offered a new unused Ideal Icos 24kw M3080 , with flue kit for £120 ..

well its cheap.. any other plus points ? .

Chris

Is that what they are paying you,to take it off thier hands?

 

[ceedy]

..

But wos after more contructive answers

 

[oldplumber]

great for standing on to install a remeha or baxi on the wall, after all theyare a solid and compact boiler. Nothing else to say about the icos really accept that on all but one ive come across recently the temp control knob had been broken off, probably by the customer trying to get some heat out of theboiler, lol

 

[ceedy]

Still ponsing about on this .. but had other things to do.

Looks like settling on a W-Bosch Greenstar, ?? maybe .. 18 RI seems quite suitable or shall I go up to a 24? just in case ...the old Boiler was only 50k Btu's. ?

C.

 

[doitmyself]

Looks like settling on a W-Bosch Greenstar, ?? maybe .. 18 RI seems quite suitable or shall I go up to a 24? just in case ...the old Boiler was only 50k Btu's.

50k BTU is just under 15kW

What does the Boiler Size Calculator say you should have? Get the nearest size larger. There's no point going over the top as you will then be restricted by your radiators.

If the calculator says that you need a 15kW boiler but the house is not getting warm enough, you need to make sure that your rads add up to at least 15kW. You can do this by using the Stelrad Elite Catalogue.

 

[ceedy]

50k BTU is just under 15kW

What does the Boiler Size Calculator say you should have? Get the nearest size larger. There's no point going over the top as you will then be restricted by your radiators.

If the calculator says that you need a 15kW boiler but the house is not getting warm enough, you need to make sure that your rads add up to at least 15kW. You can do this by using the Stelrad Elite Catalogue.

Being so old and so long ago since the install, the Housewarmer is either 45k or 55 k , even the GC number doesn't sort it

So I split the difference..

That calculator give 13.5 kw , and the rads have been just about ok with the old housewarmer, but they could certainly handle a bit more heat OK

BTW other online calcers have give slightly higher results, up around 16kw.

Thats using a roof setting of not a lot of insulation, and this year the roof is coming off and being all redone with insulation, felt, slates etc.... ( a real wallet thrashing time ).

Chris