2 engineers 1 must be lying?

[Ms E]

Hi,

I would be interested to hear what people think about this situation as I don't know what to think.

Engineer A (s/e, sole trader) came out, said not sure how to fix boiler but could be circuit board, if so I would need to pay for new circuit board and labour and hope that fixed problem (as he did not have one with him/ have access to one) I said would think about it. If didn't fix the problem I'd have to pay again to try something else. [Boiler had power but was not firing up]

Next day I decided to go with a company who were offering fixed fee no matter what the repair, to get boiler working (Engineer B).

Engineer B asked if someone had switched the circuit board as the one in there was the wrong type. Said the one that was in there wouldn't work with my boiler and can't have been in my boiler when it was working (Dec 2010 to this week).

I am inclined to believe Engineer B as he didn't have anything to gain from telling me this, and I was already committed to paying the fixed fee.
But this would mean Engineer A REMOVED correct circuit board and put in wrong one - why would they do this?
Also, I had hoped to use Engineer A in future as rates are cheap, he is gas safe and came through word of mouth. But not if can't trust him!

Thanks for reading this post and sharing your thoughts,
Confused

 

[hammers4spanner]

what was wrong with boiler in first instant?

 

[jonnyboy]

Incorrect advice.

 

[hammers4spanner]

not sure how much info we can give on here as their is a gas safe health safety rules to follow

 

[jase158]

they both say same thing, circuit board has gone, so change it. maybe get a couple more people out and find someone you trust.
Very unlikely that engineer 1 put wrong circuit board in, perhaps you already had wrong circuit board in first place which worked but has packed up!! get it changed for right one and if this doesnt work then atleast you have got correct board in boiler and the problem will be found, boiler fixed!!

 

[snowhead]

I am inclined to believe Engineer B as he didn't have anything to gain from telling me this, and I was already committed to paying the fixed fee.

Did he fix it, by fitting a new board?

Are they still going with the fixed fee even tho' the existing circuit board is wrong?

 

[REDSAW]

its an ideal?

 

[Keefy]

The way I read it there's nothing been done yet as the OP is thinking about it.

 

[aligorgon]

If either or them replace the pcb and it doesnt sort the problem either take it back and get a refund or stick it on ebay and you will probably get 75% the value.

If your in doubt about how to trust ask engineer B for the part no of the existing pcb and either ring the manufacturer or check the manual to see if hes correct.

I cant see engineer A coming round taking a suspected faulty pcb out and replacing it for one which does not suit the boiler, and leaving you with the same problem as when he started..

 

[Dannypipe]

No one is going to stick a board of another boiler into your boiler in some elaborate scam. It's just too weird for words, and wouldn't be an easy thing to achieve anyway.

I think engineer B must have his wires crossed. Excuse the pun.

 

[Ms E]

No one is going to stick a board of another boiler into your boiler in some elaborate scam. It's just too weird for words.

Exactly - that's what I thought, it's just too strange.
The board which was 'wrong' said permanent pilot and it's a boiler that only fires up on demand. Engineer B said that there was no way my boiler could have been working with this PCB in it, over 10+ years...however it MUST have been working with it all that time as only other explanation would be that it was switched the day before by engineer A!!
Anyway, hopefully now we have the right board in we should have slightly fewer problems with it :S

Thanks for your thoughts and sorry I didn't put much detail on about the boiler/pcb etc

 

[Ms E]

[Fixed fee worked out cheaper because engineer A didn't have the right pcb in van and would have had to buy it new]

 

[Destroyer2813]

If either or them replace the pcb and it doesnt sort the problem either take it back and get a refund or stick it on ebay and you will probably get 75% the value.

If your in doubt about how to trust ask engineer B for the part no of the existing pcb and either ring the manufacturer or check the manual to see if hes correct.

I cant see engineer A coming round taking a suspected faulty pcb out and replacing it for one which does not suit the boiler, and leaving you with the same problem as when he started..

You cant take pcbs back you need to be 100% thats what it is

 

[Ms E]

You cant take pcbs back you need to be 100% thats what it is

Exactly!

 

[Whn1]

I've come across wrong pcbs fitted in a boiler straight from the manufacturer but in my case though the boiler didn't work at all.

 

[TBServices]

There's nothing scarier to a gas engineer than supplying a PCB.

 

[Dannypipe]

There's nothing scarier to a gas engineer than supplying a PCB.

(A self employed engineer!) Totally agree. Luckily to date, I've not had a wrong diagnosis on one. But I've had to take an educated guess sometimes!

 

[chris watkins]

Just playing devil's advocate here but is it not possible the engineer A new what was wrong (nothing to do with PCB) fixed it but thought I want more than just this one hour callout here.
I have this old PCB that looks roughly the same as the proper one if I exchange them & tell em I will have to go way to get a replacement they will never know & as I come recommended (& I am very cheap) they are bound to get me to come back. Then I will turn up with what appears to be a new one cos I wrapped it up in bubble wrap. Just taken an extra hour & the cost of the PCB.

Call me an old cynic if you like.

Note to customers
1. If they seem cheaper than all the rest there is a good reason !
2. Use engineers where possible that work on a fixed price repair !

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I would not personally believe engineer B , not saying he is a making it up

 

[Dannypipe]

Just playing devil's advocate here but is it not possible the engineer A new what was wrong (nothing to do with PCB) fixed it but thought I want more than just this one hour callout here.
I have this old PCB that looks roughly the same as the proper one if I exchange them & tell em I will have to go way to get a replacement they will never know & as I come recommended (& I am very cheap) they are bound to get me to come back. Then I will turn up with what appears to be a new one cos I wrapped it up in bubble wrap. Just taken an extra hour & the cost of the PCB.

Call me an old cynic if you like.

Note to customers
1. If they seem cheaper than all the rest there is a good reason !
2. Use engineers where possible that work on a fixed price repair !

Really??? A bit elaborate isn't it?!!

 

[chris watkins]

There's nothing scarier to a gas engineer than supplying a PCB.

(A self employed engineer!) Totally agree. Luckily to date, I've not had a wrong diagnosis on one. But I've had to take an educated guess sometimes!

Would I be right in suggesting that if you two (god forbid) got it wrong & it was not the board you would not charge the labour for doing so but only for the work to actually repair the boiler ?
This seems to me the nub of it, you are sharing the risk with the customer we can all get it wrong from time to time, if I think there is a risk of something outside my control going wrong I tell them I risk my labour they risk the cost of the materials. Is that not fair ???

 

[chris watkins]

Really??? A bit elaborate isn't it?!!

Do you think, you would be amazed what goes on in the smoke Dannypipe

 

[tom609]

Really??? A bit elaborate isn't it?!!

why not just blag it customer would never know so why go to that length just blow the fuse it wont work easy if you want to if your that way inclined easy to fleece customers if you want to make a quick buck

 

[Dannypipe]

Would I be right in suggesting that if you two (god forbid) got it wrong & it was not the board you would not charge the labour for doing so but only for the work to actually repair the boiler ?
This seems to me the nub of it, you are sharing the risk with the customer we can all get it wrong from time to time, if I think there is a risk of something outside my control going wrong I tell them I risk my labour they risk the cost of the materials. Is that not fair ???

Well you can't return a board once you've taken it. So if it isn't the board, then you are stuck with it....and you still have a problem with the boiler!

I once repaired a Gledhill Boiler Mate. Faulty board. I was pretty confidant in my diagnosis. I put the new £200 board in, and a different issue with the boiler started. I had to buy another board and had a total ball ache in getting the faulty (new board returned) I'm sure they thought I was pulling a fast one. I wasn't. I do a lot of Gledhill repairs, and carry spares, but I won't carry spare boards incase I have a faulty new one in stock. I'd never get my money back if it had been in the van for a couple of months.

Back to the point. If I diagnosed a faulty PCB and it wasn't that. I would have to pay for the PCB and I couldn't charge for the labour either. Who wants to pay for a wrong diagnosis? As said, this hasn't been an issue yet, but I'm sure it will happen eventually.

Doesn't help that PCB faults can be so elusive or intermittant.

 

[nicro3]

Again a lack of consistency.

 

[aligorgon]

You can easily expect to get at least 75% the value of a pcb if you sell it on ebay. I got one for my sister (diagnosis over phone) 120miles away. Went over fitted it - no change. It was the ignition electrode. But diagnosing a fault over the phone with someone who has no experience isnt easy. Replaced that and everything was fine.

Bought the PCB for 120 (***bria heating)sold it for 105 on ebay as an opened but fully working PCB.

Its not the end of the world.

 

[Dannypipe]

You can easily expect to get at least 75% the value of a pcb if you sell it on ebay. I got one for my sister (diagnosis over phone) 120miles away. Went over fitted it - no change. It was the ignition electrode. But diagnosing a fault over the phone with someone who has no experience isnt easy. Replaced that and everything was fine.

Bought the PCB for 120 (***bria heating)sold it for 105 on ebay as an opened but fully working PCB.

Its not the end of the world.

It's not the end of the world, but buying something for £120 and flogging it for £105 (plus ebay fees, and the time spent doing it) isn't exactly profitable or much fun!

Anyway, it's besides the point. I can't imagine that an engineer would get a PCB out of another model/make of boiler and put it in the OP's boiler in order to make money. Just too weird.

 

[chris watkins]

why not just blag it customer would never know so why go to that length just blow the fuse it wont work easy if you want to if your that way inclined easy to fleece customers if you want to make a quick buck

(I am still plying here) The point is Tom (as you say, if you are that way) he comes back & installs a "new board" & gets paid not just for his labour but for the £150 board.

 

[Crinkmeister]

What happens to the old pcbs, do they get thrown away? I'll bet that in 90% of cases, they could be repaired very cheaply provided that the faulty component could be identified. However, that's where it gets tricky!!

 

[Dannypipe]

I don't know. Anything is possible.

There are scum bags in all walks of life.

Mate of ours, had a faulty washing machine. They called in an appliance engineer, and left him to it. He didn't fix the machine, (said it needed a part) and he nicked some of the kids presents under the tree (this was obviously at Christmas). I couldn't believe anyone would betray peoples trust like that.

Some people just have no shame.

 

[Dannypipe]

What happens to the old pcbs, do they get thrown away? I'll bet that in 90% of cases, they could be repaired very cheaply provided that the faulty component could be identified. However, that's where it gets tricky!!

I chuck em away.

I did fix a PCB on a Gledhill last week. Noticed a dry joint, and warmed it up with a soldering iron, and gave it a tiny bit of extra solder. Sorted it.

Most of the time with PCB's it's a relay, or resistor that's gone. It's not safe or cost effective to fix these. If there was a fire, you would get sued!

But there are firms who recondition PCB's of all descriptions.

 

[tamz]

Easiest way to check is for the OP to ring the manu. They will tell them if the boiler was ever made with that board.

A year or so ago i had a vokera going to lock out. Though just needs an ignition board i though and when i opened it up it had a big pink board with no ignition module. I rung vokera and the guy said just swap the board for the 2 normal ones you won't get that board here so instead of the £90 for the ignition module she had to buy both boards.
I later looked up the number off the board that was fitted and found it was used in some eastern european boiler i've forgotten the name of but it looked like a vokera so was probably made by them too.

What happens to the old pcbs, do they get thrown away? I'll bet that in 90% of cases, they could be repaired very cheaply provided that the faulty component could be identified. However, that's where it gets tricky!!

I know a guy who works for BEA. I stopped in one night and he needed a board. He said i'll take it into work tomorrow and get it fixed. It needed something that costs about 5p.
That is fine if you have the gear and knowledge to test it.

 

[mfgs]

Easiest way to check is for the OP to ring the manu. They will tell them if the boiler was ever made with that board.

A year or so ago i had a vokera going to lock out. Though just needs an ignition board i though and when i opened it up it had a big pink board with no ignition module. I rung vokera and the guy said just swap the board for the 2 normal ones you won't get that board here so instead of the £90 for the ignition module she had to buy both boards.
I later looked up the number off the board that was fitted and found it was used in some eastern european boiler i've forgotten the name of but it looked like a vokera so was probably made by them too.



I know a guy who works for BEA. I stopped in one night and he needed a board. He said i'll take it into work tomorrow and get it fixed. It needed something that costs about 5p.
That is fine if you have the gear and knowledge to test it.

I had that with the vokera boards. The pcb was knackered so got a part number from technical and ordered it, they gave me the part number for the board that also needs the ignition board. I didn't even know they had the two different set ups, had to get it swapped for one of those pink ones which was quite expensive.

 

[tamz]

Next time you see one of those pink boards (i've only ever came across that 1) take the number off it and google it. It is some off some Romanian boiler.

 

[buckley plumb]

as above why would engineer have changed or fitted another board knowing he would not be paid if it did not work

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I don't know. Anything is possible.

There are scum bags in all walks of life.

Mate of ours, had a faulty washing machine. They called in an appliance engineer, and left him to it. He didn't fix the machine, (said it needed a part) and he nicked some of the kids presents under the tree (this was obviously at Christmas). I couldn't believe anyone would betray peoples trust like that.

Some people just have no shame.

noooooooooooooo

 

[TBServices]

Would I be right in suggesting that if you two (god forbid) got it wrong & it was not the board you would not charge the labour for doing so but only for the work to actually repair the boiler ?
This seems to me the nub of it, you are sharing the risk with the customer we can all get it wrong from time to time, if I think there is a risk of something outside my control going wrong I tell them I risk my labour they risk the cost of the materials. Is that not fair ???

It's not happened yet, so I don't know how I would play it, but I worry every time I fit a PCB.

For instance, a few weeks ago I got a board for a 28cdi, it was VERY expensive. I checked everything I could to ensure it was the board and not some other fault, but in the M.I's, the official guidance was "fit new control board, if problem persists, fit new gas valve". Brilliant.

 

[didda]

Exactly - that's what I thought, it's just too strange.
The board which was 'wrong' said permanent pilot and it's a boiler that only fires up on demand. Engineer B said that there was no way my boiler could have been working with this PCB in it, over 10+ years...however it MUST have been working with it all that time as only other explanation would be that it was switched the day before by engineer A!!
Anyway, hopefully now we have the right board in we should have slightly fewer problems with it :S

Thanks for your thoughts and sorry I didn't put much detail on about the boiler/pcb etc

This sounds like a Potterton Puma combi issue?
It is possible to have a permanent pilot pcb on an electronic version boiler and work,only difference is fan runs low when no demand on perm pilot model to to clear combustion chamber

 

[tom609]

(I am still plying here) The point is Tom (as you say, if you are that way) he comes back & installs a "new board" & gets paid not just for his labour but for the £150 board.

cant see anyone going to that length really

 

[gavinwilson]

There's a guy on eBay who sells refurbished PCB's you buy them and send your PCB he sends out the refurb ,don't know if this is any use to anyone ?

 

[Howsie]

There's a guy on eBay who sells refurbished PCB's you buy them and send your PCB he sends out the refurb ,don't know if this is any use to anyone ?

I wonder what guarantee he offers?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I wonder what guarantee he offers?

The only guarantee will be te one the post office will give you that you will get your parcel

 

[stratplus]

Hello m8, what do you need to join?

 

[gavinwilson]

Not a clue about guarantee ,brother in law bought one for his boiler ,been in six months and still going think he paid 50 quid Worcester greenstar boiler

 

[R1CKY]

I think Engineer B is mistaken. I've fitted hundrerds of PCBs and the designs and layouts change quite often.

Also for what its worth, no way in hell would I fit a reconditioned board. The PCB controls most of the safety devices on the boiler, I seriously doubt the company has means of bench testing them before they are sent out.

 

[Ollieg]

So glad someone mentioned potterton puma. He is spot on.

 

[wheeto]

Also for what its worth, no way in hell would I fit a reconditioned board. The PCB controls most of the safety devices on the boiler, I seriously doubt the company has means of bench testing them before they are sent out.

I see where you're coming from, but the reason someone is in this position is because the board (controlling all those safety devices, as you point out) has already failed. Do the manufacturers ask for old boards back to learn from the failures? Why do you think that another board from the factory will perform any better than one which has had components replaced by a competent electronics engineer?

 

[Tuttle]

Just playing devil's advocate here but is it not possible the engineer A new what was wrong (nothing to do with PCB) fixed it but thought I want more than just this one hour callout here.
I have this old PCB that looks roughly the same as the proper one if I exchange them & tell em I will have to go way to get a replacement they will never know & as I come recommended (& I am very cheap) they are bound to get me to come back. Then I will turn up with what appears to be a new one cos I wrapped it up in bubble wrap. Just taken an extra hour & the cost of the PCB.

Call me an old cynic if you like.

Note to customers
1. If they seem cheaper than all the rest there is a good reason !
2. Use engineers where possible that work on a fixed price repair !

If that were the case I think he would have told the customer that the board was faulty, and that he could easily get a new one which would fix the problem, but it doesn't sound like he pushed for a board change at all, in fact he put the customer off by saying that it would cost them and may not fix the problem.

 

[Ms E]

Didda you are right a Potterton (combi 80)

Tuttle, in fact he did want to replace the board, and charge (low) labour and cost of new board, as hadn't got one already. {+ suggested new boiler needed, i.e. could get more work that way)
So my feeling was either:
-deceiving? was going to put in 2nd hand board and charge price of a new one? or,
-incompetent? had been out previously and checked boiler over and not realised had wrong board in
Anyway thanks again for all your comments, I have learned some new things and created a bit of debate hehe.
You guys all sound genuine and honest and I just hope the next person I get to fix boiler is same
x

 

[Ms E]

Sorry just because it doesn't sound like I was clear, if the pcb change had not fixed boiler problem he was going to waive labour charge but charge me for the pcb full price. thanks.