Worchester Bosch E9 Error - It's not the boiler !

[MichaelwGroves]

I have been getting an E9 error for a few years. We have replaced a many parts in the system but the fault persists. My engineer has replaced the Thermistors, main PCB and Auto purge Vent in the boiler and Worchester Technical are adamant it is not the boiler and must be a problem with the plumbing. On the heating side it is Y Plan vented system, we have replaced valve, Pump and cylinder thermostat. I also had reverse circulation which I fixed recently thanks to this forum.
The boiler is a Worchestwer Bosch Condensing 40CDi

So, to be sure the E9 error is an over heat. So I need to establish what is wrong with the central heating to make the boiler over heat. I've noticed that on hot water only it is fine. When on heating it errors. When I've watched it from cold, if the boiler get to max temperature within 7 minutes it trips. When it takes 15 minutes to hit max temperature it works fine. It only trips on start up. I've also noticed recently that I can bleed my highest radiator daily, expelling 5 seconds of fast air.
So I'm thinking maybe it's sucking in air and this is what causes boiler to trip, but i don't want to lead you.But if so from where?

The current system is made of two halves, origional 22mm copper to 15mm T to radiators. The new part is 22mm Hep2o Mainfolds to 10mm and 15mm to radiators. The pump is a Grundfos Magna 25. When I put this on auto the house does not get hot enough, but the boiler does not trip. So I have to set pump at constant flow No.7

I attach an image which show the layout almost exactly, including T's etc. If it looks wrong it may well be, or maybe an inaccuracy in the drawing. For instance, yes the cylinder is bottom feed!
Yes there is an unconventional vent just before the pump due to old pump being under powered and air getting trapped before the boiler. If it looks wrong please say.

I am really lost with this, Worchester are adamant it's not the boiler, and we have replaced all the parts they thought it might be, but I just can't see what is wrong with the plumbing. Any help would be much appreciated.



Thanks
Michael

 

[stevetheplumber]

does this sytem need an auto bypass fitting?is the vent before the pum0p an auto one ?

 

[diamondgas]

Initially I'd be thinking circulation flow restricted somehow? A good suggestion by "stevetheplumber" regards an auto bypass... What's a grundfoss Magna 25? I'll have to google that one! If its an 'intelligent' pump then my attention would be drawn to that too...

 

[MichaelwGroves]

Just checked the installation manual, it says "NB Generally a bypass is not necessary on a Y plan system as one of the parts is open to flow"
So not an exact science, why might I need a bypass?

The grundfos Magna is an intelligent pump, but I'm confident it's not this as it was doing it before the pump was replaced, I was hoping the new pump would fix it!

 

[MichaelwGroves]

Flow restriction is worth a thought, but I can't see where?

 

[Roger Welton]

3 port not flowing sufficient, the 28mm honeywells are only rated at 23kW

 

[vern]

The vent behind the pump is wrong, this will draw in air and cause cavitation of the pump

How old is the boiler please cinfirm it is a 40 CDI and NOT HE?

How big is the y plan valve 22mm or 28 mm?

 

[diamondgas]

Flow restriction is worth a thought, but I can't see where?

The intelligent pump is a flow restrictor!! It reduces speed to accommodate what it thinks is right! That may compromise what the manufacturer asks minimum flow through the boiler (guessing)!

TRV's reduce flow hence the recommendation of an automatic bi-pass. It'll only open should the system pressure build to a certain level. It's design should allow the mi's minimum flow through the boiler I'd imagine, and reduce the potential for 'overheat'!

 

[vern]

The intelligent pump is a flow restrictor!! It reduces speed to accommodate what it thinks is right! That may compromise what the manufacturer asks minimum flow through the boiler (guessing)!

TRV's reduce flow hence the recommendation of an automatic bi-pass. It'll only open should the system pressure build to a certain level. It's design should allow the mi's minimum flow through the boiler I'd imagine, and reduce the potential for 'overheat'!

Its on constant 7 so fullbore! drawing in even more air, plastic pipe on open vent = sludge (unless dosed to the gills with inhibtor which i doubt all that fresh oxygen making even more sludge)

 

[MichaelwGroves]

The boiler is 40 CDi
i've checked valve spec, it's only 22mm and yes rated at 26kw.
i can see this could be a problem, but when on hot water only it works?

Could this also be the reason why the pump when on intelligent mode reduces pressure as it thinks a TRV is always half on and backs off?

The vent directly before the pump is a manual vent, so should not be sucking air in, but again I can vent this daily. Could the system be sucking air in from the tank vent pipe?

I have inhibitor in the system.

 

[Roger Welton]

So the primaries are piped in 22mm?

 

[MichaelwGroves]

Yep, 22mm straight from the boiler, nothing bigger.

 

[stevetheplumber]

40 kw should realy have some 28mm pipework up to the threeway at minimum

 

[Roger Welton]

And I'd be looking for s plan rather than y, maybe with heating circuit done part in 28 also.

 

[MichaelwGroves]

But the boiler flow and return are 22mm, so there would still be a restriction at the boiler. Worchester Bosch also advised 22mm pipe is fine.

We know the Valve is rated at 26kW, (this is the Honeywell recommended size, not maximum) but does anyone know the port size, is it less than the internal dimension of a 22mm pipe? If not then we can assume the flow rate is fine through the valve. Also as previously mention, Hot Water only works fine!

 

[diamondgas]

But the boiler flow and return are 22mm, so there would still be a restriction at the boiler. Worchester Bosch also advised 22mm pipe is fine.

We know the Valve is rated at 26kW, (this is the Honeywell recommended size, not maximum) but does anyone know the port size, is it less than the internal dimension of a 22mm pipe? If not then we can assume the flow rate is fine through the valve. Also as previously mention, Hot Water only works fine!

Personally, regardless of pipe sizing etc I'd be wanting to know temp differences between flow and return pipes at the boiler when on heating only Michael. That'll let you know whether there's an issue with circulation or not Ideally you're after 22deg C difference. The greater the diff the slower the circulation.. It's a relatively quick indication of system performance IMHO

 

[MichaelwGroves]

Thanks, not able to check until Wednesday, but I will report back thereafter.

 

[diamondgas]

Just re-read your original post Michael ... The symptoms you describe would have me checking circulation. If it's slowing down on heating that's weird! Check the temp diff's with the diverter in all three positions, hot water only, water and heating, heating only.. It may pay to allow the system to cool down prior to each check. Any rapid flow temp rise would be what I'd be looking out for! Do all your radiators have TRV's fitted? When e9 occurs make a note of temp diff's and how many radiators are 'on' ... Intermittent faults can be a nightmare to get to the bottom of so have patience

 

[diamondgas]

You mentioned 'air' in one of the radiators. Is it air? Could be gas caused by corrosion, hopefully not!!! ...

You mentioned hep2o ... is it "barriered" Hep? Hopefully it is! ... Single wall is a no,no!

 

[MichaelwGroves]

PATIENCE!!!!!!!!!!! It's taken 5 years so far :cry_smile: LOL

Thanks mate, good idea. I'll start with this and report back.

 

[MichaelwGroves]

Mainly new radiators, so hopefully not corrosuion. Yep, all Hep2o is barrier.

All Radiators have TRV except Bathroom and Hall where Thermostat located.

 

[diamondgas]

5yrs !!!!

12 radiators and 40kW of heat sounds a bit much too, by-the-way! Not that it should make that much difference as the boiler should modulate down to accommodate the changing environment!

I'm off to earn some pennie's ..!

 

[Howsie]

Call someone already.

 

[MichaelwGroves]

I've not been able to check flow and return temperature yet, but i was checking my diagram. It appears I have the supply and vent the wrong way round. Although, you could say my diagram had them the correct way round!
Please see updated diagram. The diagram now shows exactly the layout of pipes. I had to bleed my top radiator again and vent in front of pump. Could the pump be sucking air in from the main vent pipe?

 

[buckley plumb]

coukld you range rate the boiler down on the htg side to say 20kw for a while then see how it goes on . as above the pipe work may not take 40kw of heat.

 

[Roger Welton]

What buckley says, had a house that was sectioned off into flats each with there own combi's fitted with the exception of the ground floor which retained the existing boiler (40CDi) it was firing winding itself up then shutting off (up to temp) very quickly, dropped the max firing rate down (explained in the CDi engineers booklet off worcester site) and the job was a orange root vegtable

 

[stoker122]

The pump looks like it is pulling on the vent probably on start up.
It may be not pulling as hard just with hot water on due to higher resistance.
It could well be worth swapping the feed and expansion so the pump pulls on the cold feed instead.

 

[MichaelwGroves]

I'm thinking about lineing all my wet jobs up so I only need to drain system once.

Jobs so far;
Swap Feed & Expansion pipes. The Diagram now shows exact placement,is there a preferred point to tap off?
Replace 3 Port Valve for bigger. What would you recommend.

I'm thinking if I need to make the vent changes, should I consider converting to an un-vented system. Any benefits on one Vs the other?

I also have dry jobs, I will down rate the boiler and see how this goes, along with checking return temperature.

 

[Roger Welton]

I'd use 2 x 2 ports instead of a 3 port,

 

[diamondgas]

Is the vent before the pump automatic or manual? If auto that could be where you're drawing in air! Just a thought

 

[MichaelwGroves]

Is the vent before the pump automatic or manual? If auto that could be where you're drawing in air! Just a thought

Manual, thumb screw.

 

[MichaelwGroves]

Looked at this on Saturday, gave it a lot of thought. Clearly Vent is in wrong place and this muct be where airs is coming from, but this is just pushed to the Bathroom radiator where it coolects. It can't get to th boiler. So bad installation by origional plumber but can't be why boiler is erroring. Also 3 way valve, yep agree too small for boiler on max, but if this were the problem I would get problems with radiators not gettinmg not enough. So would be a good upgrade but probably not causing bolier to error. It would just act like sevetral TRV's backing off.

So last idea is down rate the boiler as it's heating up too quickly. Okay, the only time the boiler errors is on start up, once it gets going its fine. So I down rated central heating to 27kW.
Well since then it's been fine, no problems at all. I have left the hot water at 40kW. The radiators are not as hot as they were and the house is on the edge of just being warm enough, so I might tweek to 30kW at the weekend if it behaves itself.
So my advise to anyone who gets an E9 error is down rate it as your very first jobas it only takes 2 minutes.

Thanks for all the advice guys

 

[Roger Welton]

So it must be stuggling to flow the heat away as it ramps up the load on start up.

 

[MichaelwGroves]

That's a good way of looking at it, so if I removed the restriction by way of the 3 port valve, this might also solve it?

2 port valves was recommended, but to keep the job simple can I get a larger 3 way valve that will allow 40kW of flow ?

 

[Roger Welton]

I'd be looking at 2 ports, easier to wire and fault find, plus can flow more heat.

 

[MichaelwGroves]

What models would you recommend, all my pipe work is 22mm, so I would look to replace 3 way with 22mm T, striaght into 2 port valves ?

 

[Roger Welton]

Yup, I prefer honeywell valves personally.

 

[MichaelwGroves]

Would I get a full 22mm flow from Honeywell V4043, not sure on difference for "B" and "H". or would I need 28mm valve to get full flow?

 

[Roger Welton]

From Honeywell training manual

 

[MichaelwGroves]

That's mad, why does Worchester Bosch only come off the boiler in 22mm ?

 

[Roger Welton]

Cost, that's all

 

[vern]

That's mad, why does Worchester Bosch only come off the boiler in 22mm ?

Because in WB lab tests they found you can have upto 1m of 22 mm straight off the boiler before increasing to 28 mm, this has virtually no effect on heat capacity.....this keeps their costs down too! As they send same pipes as 30 kw version!

I would run 28 mm primary's, then fit 2 x 28 mm zones valves, with 22 mm honeywell ABV, then convert to sealed system, job done.....

Micheal you cannot have your heating set on 27 kw and hot water on 40 kw on the 40 cdi, so if you have adjusted to 27 kw, the hot water is set to this also!

 

[MichaelwGroves]

Sorry, don't mean to be argumentative but...........

I don't see how 28mm will give better flow if boiler is only 22mm. But, I can see upgrading pipe at valve to 28mm to get full 22mm through valve.

snip from Manuel, "Even if the heating output is limited, the full rated heat output remains available for hot water"
1.a is setting for CH, 1.b is setting for Hot Water.

What are the advantages/disadvantages sealed over vented?


What's the advantages/disadvanteges sealed over vented?

 

[vern]

Sorry, don't mean to be argumentative but...........

I don't see how 28mm will give better flow if boiler is only 22mm. But, I can see upgrading pipe at valve to 28mm to get full 22mm through valve.

snip from Manuel, "Even if the heating output is limited, the full rated heat output remains available for hot water"
1.a is setting for CH, 1.b is setting for Hot Water.

What are the advantages/disadvantages sealed over vented?



What's the advantages/disadvanteges sealed over vented?

Trust me on the pipe, it acts as a buffer, just like the outlet of a gas meter is only 22 mm, but is often increased to 28 or even 35 mm on some installs.....

the 1a and 1b rule above is only for the combi boiler version not heat only like you have, how do you think the boiler knows wether it is in hot water only or ch mode? It does'nt it has a common switched live sorry you are on 27 kw for both.

loads of advantages foe sealed system google it or search on here and save my finger it has been covered many times!

 

[buckley plumb]

View attachment 11060

From Honeywell training manual

have you got that manual on pdf mate

 

[gpbeck]

Total system resistance is the sum of individual resistances in series. So you can compensate for high resistance somewhere (e.g. boiler) by lower resistances elsewhere.

 

[MichaelwGroves]

I get it now, coming straight out of the boiler in 22mm will have similar resistance as going round a 90 degre bend in 28mm. I have some further upgrades planned, so will look to upgrade pipe and valves at the same time.

 

[vern]

I get it now, coming straight out of the boiler in 22mm will have similar resistance as going round a 90 degre bend in 28mm. I have some further upgrades planned, so will look to upgrade pipe and valves at the same time.

Good gleen as much info as you can, remember we do this for a living :sunny:

 

[Roger Welton]

have you got that manual on pdf mate

I don't I'm afraid, paper only.

 

[MichaelwGroves]

I hate to admit I am wrong, but Vern I reckon you were right about the boiler as well. Obviuos when you think about that one
So do I assume the hot water setting has no effect on my boiler, or should I set this the same?

Thanks