Smelled gas, called cadent, gas leak detected, do i need to replace the whole pipe?

[naterac]

Hi,

Yesterday morning my partner smelled gas in the flat and called cadent, the gas man came and he was not able to pinpoint where or even if there was a leak inside the flat, he tested the pressure and detected a drop of 1.5 milibar on the 2 minute test so he capped the pipe and said i needed to have it fixed. Worth mentioning that i live on the 5th floor and the meters are in the ground floor.

I then called an engineer and he confirmed that there is a drop of 1.5, but couldn't detect any gas leak inside my flat, he said that the leak must be somewhere else between the ground floor and my flat, also when he was testing we couldn't smell any gas.

He then capped my gas pipe again and said that most likely i'll have to change the piping from the ground floor all the way up to my flat because i reported a smell of gas and by law i now need to prove that my pipe has 0 drop even though a 1.5 drop is within the acceptable levels.

My questions are:
1- Is this true? if the engineer couldn't find a leak inside my flat do i need to replace the whole pipe even though we couldn't smell gas anymore (for all i know the smell we sensed yesterday morning was coming from somewhere else)

2- If i do have to replace the pipe, do i have to pay for it (i have a leasehold on the flat) or does the freeholder have to pay for it?

Thanks,

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Where does your gas pipe run inside the property eg just straight to the boiler along the wall etc

 

[naterac]

Where does your gas pipe run inside the property eg just straight to the boiler along the wall etc

The boiler is attached to the wall that is adjacent to a hallway outside my flat, the pipes run through the ceiling of that hallway, into my flat's ceiling and then straight to the boiler. So i think that there must be less than two meters of that pipe inside my flat.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Any other gas appliances?

 

[naterac]

Any other gas appliances?

Nope, just the boiler, the kitchen is electric.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Did your engineer isolate the boiler ? And re do the test ?

 

[naterac]

Did your engineer isolate the boiler ? And re do the test ?

Yes he did, the leak is definitely somewhere between the gas meter and the lever that isolates my boiler from the pipe. His device didn't pick any gas readings inside the boiler nor around te pipe joints nor around the lever.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

needs further investigation or to just replace the line as it’s short

 

[naterac]

needs further investigation or to just replace the line as it’s short

What do you mean by replacing the line? the whole pipe from the gas meter? it's 5 floors! tracking where the leak is along the whole pipe i guess is just not possible.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Don’t you have an isolators and test point inside the flat ?

 

[naterac]

Don’t you have an isolators and test point inside the flat ?

I'm far from being an expert in these things, but i think i do, have a look at the boiler. I believe the test point is the thing right next to the red broom stick and the isolator is the yellow lever?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yep did he test from there or the one by the meter ?

 

[naterac]

Yep did he test from there or the one by the meter ?

both, but the pressure drop shows when he tests on the one by the meter.

 

[Gasmk1]

not being a clever clogs but your supply from the meter outlet looks like tracpipe so I would imagine there are no joints on the length (that's the whole point of tracpipe and its equivalent) so I would probably say your leak is more than likely on the meter or the boiler. I Amy be wrong but tracpipe is stainless steel and coated in plastic sleeving so any leak on that would be impossible to trace. I suggest you find another gas engineer to try again one who can test each bit separately. to ascertain which part of installation is leaking. if it is on the tracpipe be prepared for an expensive job. It’s a wrap! Gas pipe with an extra sleeve - https://www.phamnews.co.uk/its-a-wrap-gas-pipe-with-an-extra-sleeve/

 

[Gasmk1]

as for freeholder paying I don't know its something you would have to take up with them.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

both, but the pressure drop shows when he tests on the one by the meter.

did he close the valve to the left of the boiler ?

 

[Scott_D]

not being a clever clogs but your supply from the meter outlet looks like tracpipe so I would imagine there are no joints on the length (that's the whole point of tracpipe and its equivalent) so I would probably say your leak is more than likely on the meter or the boiler. I Amy be wrong but tracpipe is stainless steel and coated in plastic sleeving so any leak on that would be impossible to trace. I suggest you find another gas engineer to try again one who can test each bit separately. to ascertain which part of installation is leaking. if it is on the tracpipe be prepared for an expensive job. It’s a wrap! Gas pipe with an extra sleeve - https://www.phamnews.co.uk/its-a-wrap-gas-pipe-with-an-extra-sleeve/

Trouble is you cant know whats happened along its length, could have a fitting, could have a screw through it, could have rubbed on something over the years and have a small hole.
If there is a drop and smell of gas has been reported it has to be capped until repaired/replaced

 

[naterac]

did he close the valve to the left of the boiler ?

Yeah he did

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Well then your buggered it’s the trac pipe line or fittings did he spray the fittings either end with fluid ?

 

[naterac]

Well then your buggered it’s the trac pipe line or fittings did he spray the fittings either end with fluid ?

yes he did and he didn't get any bubbles. So we need to replace the whole trac pipe all the way from the ground floor? is it true that it needs to be replaced by law because i reported it? and last question, could you give me a ball park figure in £ on what i'd be looking at? 1000? 5000? 10000? 20000?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Correct unless you can find the leak might be worth just pressure testing the trac pipe as a last resort

And it’s off because you have reported a smell of gas and there’s a drop

couldn’t as there’s a load of factors

 

[Scott_D]

You might kick yourself for reporting it but there is a leak and it need fixing.

are you sure the pipes don’t go into a service void?

 

[Last Plumber]

by law i now need to prove that my pipe has 0 drop even though a 1.5 drop is within the acceptable levels.

There is no drop allowed on pipe work only (once appliances are isolated). That's why it cannot be left on.
Is the pipework accessible as scott mentioned? e.g. service duct.

 

[Gasmk1]

Trouble is you cant know whats happened along its length, could have a fitting, could have a screw through it, could have rubbed on something over the years and have a small hole.
If there is a drop and smell of gas has been reported it has to be capped until repaired/replaced

Trouble is you cant know whats happened along its length, could have a fitting, could have a screw through it, could have rubbed on something over the years and have a small hole.
If there is a drop and smell of gas has been reported it has to be capped until repaired/replaced

That’s why I said to test each section and fully determine whether it is the tracpipe spent many years doing trace and repairs on domestic and commercial

 

[Gasmk1]

Where did you small the gas

 

[Gasmk1]

Trouble is you cant know whats happened along its length, could have a fitting, could have a screw through it, could have rubbed on something over the years and have a small hole.
If there is a drop and smell of gas has been reported it has to be capped until repaired/replaced

The traction without fittings will cost approx £300 for 30 metres plus new fittings then cost of removal of old and fitting of new. Depends on where the pipes run, and what access there is.

 

[PETE 123]

Going back to the original post they could smell gas in flat i would put more effort into anything in flat to be tested and test again before a rerun.

 

[Last Plumber]

It has a leak on what is considered pipework only. It has to be identified. I would be capping off the isolation valve in the flat and testing against that at this point, from the meter end. Also making certain there are no leaks around the meter. If there is a leak on the run up to the flat it needs testing where it can be accessed (I would use a Gasco Seeker) and failing that it will need to be replaced.

 

[naterac]

You might kick yourself for reporting it but there is a leak and it need fixing.

are you sure the pipes don’t go into a service void?

I don't know to be honest, all i see are individual pipes coming off each meter in the meter room, they all go through the roof and then i see one of those pipes coming into my boiler.

 

[naterac]

did he close the valve to the left of the boiler ?

yes he did.

 

[naterac]

It has a leak on what is considered pipework only. It has to be identified. I would be capping off the isolation valve in the flat and testing against that at this point, from the meter end. Also making certain there are no leaks around the meter. If there is a leak on the run up to the flat it needs testing where it can be accessed (I would use a Gasco Seeker) and failing that it will need to be replaced.

Ah, rather than just closing the valve you mean caping the pipe in case the valve is leaking gas when it's closed?

 

[naterac]

Where did you small the gas

Inside that small room where the boiler is

 

[naterac]

Just thought that if i had to re run the pipes, maybe it would make sense and probably be cheaper to install an electric boiler instead? what do you think?

 

[snowhead]

Just thought that if i had to re run the pipes, maybe it would make sense and probably be cheaper to install an electric boiler instead? what do you think?

NO.
The running cost would be higher.
Your flat may not have a sufficiently big enough electrical supply to support the boiler and could mean running a new cable from the meters, which are probably close to where the gas meters are.....

Before replacing any pipework it needs a lot of investigation particularly of the gas supplies to other flats.
It shouldn't be a case of the leak / source of smell can't be found so change your pipework anyway, it could turn out to be a supply to another flat, or even from outside.

 

[naterac]

NO.
The running cost would be higher.
Your flat may not have a sufficiently big enough electrical supply to support the boiler and could mean running a new cable from the meters, which are probably close to where the gas meters are.***.

Before replacing any pipework it needs a lot of investigation particularly of the gas supplies to other flats.
It shouldn't be a case of the leak / source of smell can't be found so change your pipework anyway, it could turn out to be a supply to another flat, or even from outside.

Noted, thanks! - Even if what i smelled turned out to come from another flat, i understand i still have to fix my pipe because it has a drop and i reported the smell of gas, so the cap can't be removed until the leak on my pipe is fixed right?

 

[snowhead]

Noted, thanks! - Even if what i smelled turned out to come from another flat, i understand i still have to fix my pipe because it has a drop and i reported the smell of gas, so the cap can't be removed until the leak on my pipe is fixed right?

YES, it needs fixing, that's gas you're paying for and getting no benefit from and could possibly be a hazard to yourself and others.

The reason for the pressure drop in your pipework needs to be identified and fixed, whether it be the pipe leaking or a joint leaking.
If the pipe was going to be replaced then whoever does that would have to expose the route the existing pipe runs to install the new pipe, so it would make sense, once it's confirmed beyond doubt that the pipe between the meter and flat is the problem, to expose the existing and trace the exact location of the leak.
There may be a joint that can remade, it may be a problem with lack of support for the pipe and had failed in some way which may also be an issue with the other flats.

What I wouldn't want as a customer is for someone to say it's quite likely to be the pipe, as opposed to saying the leak is at a specific location and pay for replacement only to find it wasn't needed.

As to whether the Freeholder has liability, that depends on the wording of the lease.
However it's quite likely you'll need the permission of the freeholder to have work done in the common area and the other flat owners need to be made aware of the issue in case it affects them or incase they have any knowledge of similar issues with their gas supply.

 

[naterac]

YES, it needs fixing, that's gas you're paying for and getting no benefit from and could possibly be a hazard to yourself and others.

The reason for the pressure drop in your pipework needs to be identified and fixed, whether it be the pipe leaking or a joint leaking.
If the pipe was going to be replaced then whoever does that would have to expose the route the existing pipe runs to install the new pipe, so it would make sense, once it's confirmed beyond doubt that the pipe between the meter and flat is the problem, to expose the existing and trace the exact location of the leak.
There may be a joint that can remade, it may be a problem with lack of support for the pipe and had failed in some way which may also be an issue with the other flats.

What I wouldn't want as a customer is for someone to say it's quite likely to be the pipe, as opposed to saying the leak is at a specific location and pay for replacement only to find it wasn't needed.

As to whether the Freeholder has liability, that depends on the wording of the lease.
However it's quite likely you'll need the permission of the freeholder to have work done in the common area and the other flat owners need to be made aware of the issue in case it affects them or incase they have any knowledge of similar issues with their gas supply.

Well, this is going to be fun. Thanks a lot for the help everyone. Cheers!

 

[snowhead]

Keep us updated if you would, everyone is going to be interested in the outcome.

 

[IND_Nick]

As mentioned above I would try and get an experienced gas engineer who is happy to spend a bit of time testing each section of pipe. While not impossible it is unlikely leak is on the Tracpipe section if it is one long run. I would concentrate on meter connections, boiler connection and any valves in the pipework( especially in the apartment if that is where the smell first appeared). For a good engineer it won't take long to determine exactly which section is at fault.
Why not post your location and see if any of the lads here are able to help?

 

[naterac]

As mentioned above I would try and get an experienced gas engineer who is happy to spend a bit of time testing each section of pipe. While not impossible it is unlikely leak is on the Tracpipe section if it is one long run. I would concentrate on meter connections, boiler connection and any valves in the pipework( especially in the apartment if that is where the smell first appeared). For a good engineer it won't take long to determine exactly which section is at fault.
Why not post your location and see if any of the lads here are able to help?

Hi, sure, i’m in N226AF. Anyone?

 

[naterac]

As mentioned above I would try and get an experienced gas engineer who is happy to spend a bit of time testing each section of pipe. While not impossible it is unlikely leak is on the Tracpipe section if it is one long run. I would concentrate on meter connections, boiler connection and any valves in the pipework( especially in the apartment if that is where the smell first appeared). For a good engineer it won't take long to determine exactly which section is at fault.
Why not post your location and see if any of the lads here are able to help?

Hi, yea absolutely, i’m at N226AF. Anyone?

 

[Specialdog]

As mentioned above I would try and get an experienced gas engineer who is happy to spend a bit of time testing each section of pipe. While not impossible it is unlikely leak is on the Tracpipe section if it is one long run. I would concentrate on meter connections, boiler connection and any valves in the pipework( especially in the apartment if that is where the smell first appeared). For a good engineer it won't take long to determine exactly which section is at fault.
Why not post your location and see if any of the lads here are able to help?

If the meter has been capped and retested to zero drop then that can be completely ruled out. Same of boiler has been isolated.

 

[Specialdog]

Where in the flat did you smell gas. Can you pin point the place where it smelled strongest?

 

[naterac]

Where in the flat did you smell gas. Can you pin point the place where it smelled strongest?

It was around the boiler, but we could also smell it in the hallway outside the flat

 

[naterac]

Hi Everyone,

So, i ended up calling up another gas engineer in my local area who was able to come immediately, he uncapped the meter and looked for leaks within my flat (all joints and the boiler itself) he also looked for leaks in the meter and couldn't find any. He ran the pressure test again and said that he deemed my gas installation safe and since the drop is well within what's allowed/legal he was completely happy to leave the gas on.

We have not smelled gas since, so for all i know that smell of gas was either coming from somewhere else or we might have imagined it.

Happy ending i guess.

Thanks guys for all the advice!

Cheers!

 

[snowhead]

Thanks for the update.

Did the engineer workout where the pipe runs up from the meter and or check where the pipe(s) to other flat(s) runs?

 

[Riley]

He’s brave leaving it on with a drop and a reported smell of gas.