Radiator internal baffle for narrow tall column rads?

[1justin]

Hi,
Has anyone got a source, or know of what to use for internal baffle for vertical column radiators?

I'm re-doing my house and am installing vertical column rads to free up a lot of essential wall space. I'm worried that the water will shoot straight across the bottom tappings rather than going up the columns.

One supplier told me not to worry, but I can't help feeling this is likely to happen, and forums have some folks suffering this. I'd rather get it right at install stage than wait to see if it's an issue. The small bedroom rads are only ~160mm wide and 1.5M tall, straight through the bottom taps so I think this problem will be likely. I see the more expensive (Myson etc) products do say in datasheets that they have a baffle - some sort of bit of plastic, my cheaper ones have nothing at all and no instructions or guidelines with them. I can't locate details of a picture of any sort of what the baffle might be like.

I think what I need is a recommendation for a DIY or after-market nylon widget I can fit in when I mount these rads.

I'm not actually proposing to shove a brillo-pad in there, but that's kind of the concept, and I'm up for ideas. I am using bottom taps throughout (I could solve the problem with top/bottom but that's ugly for pipework).

Justin

 

[JCplumb]

The water won't just shoot along the bottom, convection currents will naturally occur in the radiators due to heat rising with or without baffles.

 

[MattWeth]

As JCplumb says, you're overthinking this

The rads should have been tested to provide their rated output without any additional fitments. As long as you've picked a rad of the correct rating, it'll just work.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Column rads are rubbish imho good for art decor and look fancy and thats it ,last year i had done a radiator conversion in someones house from conventional rads to column ones as they were decorating the house right through . Worked out heat cal as you do and then some and installed correct sized columns as required . Winters come along and hey presto whine and moan about not hot enough even tho they had now extra kilowatts.

 

[MattWeth]

I think decent column rads are ok - as with everything you get what you pay for.

I fitted one of these http://www.screw fix.com/p/espacio-square-designer-radiator-anthracite-1800-x-470mm/20237# when I built our kitchen extension. Because it's a hollow, tube-in-tube design it's got a lot of surface area and really chucks out some heat. Flippin' expensive though and is the heaviest rad I've ever handled - needed resin anchors to hang it.

 

[1justin]

"You're overthinking this."

Maybe. But it'd be nice to have such faith in manufacturers stuff doing what it says.

Why do column rads of near identical design from Myson etc contain baffles? - And what's wrong with the set-up when other forum postrs ask about exactly this problem?

 

[zzzjim]

Leave some space to add fans to designer rads ?

( DIY hot air like they had at school ..lol )


IF they are any good they " SHOULD have Specs "
so you will be able to tell if they give off enough Heat .

Plenty of surface area is a good start !

 

[MattWeth]

"You're overthinking this."

Maybe. But it'd be nice to have such faith in manufacturers stuff doing what it says.

Why do column rads of near identical design from Myson etc contain baffles? - And what's wrong with the set-up when other forum postrs ask about exactly this problem?

You asked a question, I gave you my opinion (which is worth exactly what you paid for it).

Shoving something into a rad to try and 'adjust' the way water flows through it is asking for trouble (in my humble opinion). Radiators work via convection as well as directed flow and should deliver their rated output unmodified. If you want a radiator which comes with a baffle, then pay for one that says it has one fitted - as I said above, you get what you pay for.

But, that's just my opinion - I'm sure if you keep asking you'll eventually get the answer you want...

 

[zzzjim]

Why do column rads of near identical design from Myson etc contain baffles?

I'll go with advertising Hype " Now with added baffles"

Hot water obeys laws of Physics , it will rise . Cold displaced will mix back in .

(If it shoots across in a jet , its flowing too fast , Squirted by narrow Jet ! )

 

[Howsie]

Buy a decent rad and you'll be fine. CH water doesn't shoot across anyway when running at the correct speed.

I installed three column rads in our lounge, they look great and were expensive but not great at heating the room (have UFH so no real issue). As long as you have sized them properly for the room you'll be fine.

 

[1justin]

Thanks Matt. Well I value all opinions and the more people tell me I'm wrong, the more likely I am to believe it.

Have you fitted any of these rads? The distance from input to output is 180mm, - straight through. And they are 1500 or 1800 tall. Hot water rises of course, but I thought it was fair to ask.

 

[Howsie]

Hardly any surface area buy the look of that pic. Any fins that I can't see?

 

[MattWeth]

Thanks Matt. Well I value all opinions and the more people tell me I'm wrong, the more likely I am to believe it.

Have you fitted any of these rads? The distance from input to output is 180mm, - straight through. And they are 1500 or 1800 tall. Hot water rises of course, but I thought it was fair to ask.
View attachment 6432

I've not fitted any rads like that. As Howsie says, at first glance they look to be a very low output. Is their rated output a match for the conventional rad you're replacing?

 

[1justin]

Hi Howsie, No fins, it's rated 960W which is all I need. I'm doing a complete energy re-vamp anyhow with much extra insultion,so the old (1972) rad is irellevant. It's in the limits for the calcs.

 

[MattWeth]

Hi Howsie, No fins, it's rated 960W which is all I need. I'm doing a complete energy re-vamp anyhow with much extra insultion,so the old (1972) rad is irellevant. It's in the limits for the calcs.

Sounds fine then.

Good to hear that you've taken the 'fabric first' approach and have maximised insulation (and I'd imagine minimised air leakage?). However, be wary of sizing a heat emitter too close to the calculated losses - a bit of 'margin' is no bad thing - there's no harm in oversizing a radiator and it'll allow you to drop the heating flow temp (and hence achieve a lower return temp which will improve the condensing performance and efficiency of your boiler).

 

[Howsie]

In my experince the ratings for column rads are useless...

 

[Howsie]

But they look nice

 

[JCplumb]

I fitted this bad boy a couple of months ago.
It's designed so the water goes up one column then down the next, heats up in about 2 minutes and gets to a silly temperature, you can feel the heat going through it, as mentioned aboive the CH temp needed turning down after fitting.
Cost £400 + fittings and needed 2 of us to lift it but it's a belter. Have fitted one similar to the OPs rad before and had no problems, it was rated about 20% more than the one I removed though.

 

[zzzjim]

But they look nice
View attachment 6433

View attachment 6434

Finally a rad to keep by back warm as I lean on the wall with my coat on !

 

[Best]

Those " cast iron, school type" radiators with the wide, sometimes round columns, are hard to beat as they have a bigger surface area than they look & should have a wide waterways. A baffle in them is probably better - as long as it is factory fitted! IMO stay clear of designer rads with very thin panels. Quinn Forza are lovely rads with great output.

 

[ggman]

I have 7 tall column rad fitted in my house, 3 of them were supplied with a flow diverter (baffle) that was part of the fitting kit, it was simply a metal diaphragm with a spring blocking the flow to the bottom elements diverting the water to the top, this arrangement make them to warm up quickly, but still if you don't have the baffle they can be connected TBOE like any radiator should be connected for max efficiency, in one bedroom i used 2 rads one on each side of a small bay window one of them is a 4 element 2 column 1800x180 connected at the bottom BOE and i can only noticed a marginal delay when warming up but still efficient when hot, I never had the flow higher than 60-62 C when outside was really freezy, and normally my flow is 55 C.
It is up to you, you can ran a pipe to the top behind the rad, it is difficult to find a baffle, i am trying to make one myself, or connect BOE and you will loose a marginal degree of efficiency.
I agree with Best column radiators have a much bigger "wet" surface consequently are more efficient especially regarding RADIANT heat.
Regards
ggman

 

[1justin]

Hi ggman,

Thank you for the comprehensive reply. It's nice to hear from someone who has used prettty much the same design as I have here and is also familiar with the baffles fitted to some. I am currently connecting BOE and would rather it remains that way to keep appearance nice and save burying more pipes in the wall.

I'll go with it then and see how I get on. We've had no boiler at all for the last 2 years, (house maintenance underway, - baby 4KW woodburner and the sun is the only heat in this 4 bedroom house).. so Mrs J will be pleased when I get this going.

Rgds

 

[stevetheplumber]

remember most outputs are calculated using top and bottom opposite ends ,using bottom opposite ends will reduce the output

 

[1justin]

Thanks Steve. Yes, my rads are variously 10-25% oversized based on U values plus air changes for each room at standard rates. The house also has supplementary woodburner(s), (in fact that's all it's had at all for the last 2 years), so I hope I'll be OK that way.

Rgds

 

[ggman]

Hi justin here the link of heatline fitting instructions, you can see there the spring loaded diverter
these are the rads that I fitted.
[DLMURL]http://www.heatline.co.uk/assets/products/radId4/Tubular%20Steel%20Instructions.pdf[/DLMURL]
Regards

 

[1justin]

Ah, that's good the first picture I've seen. So it's just a spring to turbulate the flow.

I'll investigate further if they don't work as well as I expect.

Thanks

 

[PlumbBobBob]

justin, if you look closely at the spring in the picture it looks like there is cap on the end of it, i suppose to seal the bottom channel and divert the hot water upwards.

 

[ggman]

Hi Justin
the pic may be a bit deceiving, at the end of the spring there is a stainless steel cup in order to block the flow to the next element horizontally, so the water has to go up to the top. When you fit them, the larger side of the spring is located to the radiator socket and will push the cup (diaphragm) against the second element.
Regards

 

[1justin]

Thanks, got it now.

Rgds

 

[1justin]

Update to anyone elsw who might look at this.

Rads appear to be performing just FINE, connected BOE with no baffle. Narrowest one is 180mm wide 4 column (x2) and 1800 tall.

Rgds