Pressure fault diagnosis and consequences for repair

[Bobismyuncle]

Doh. Did not register but have now. Sorry about that!

I'm no expert but this case seems a bit dubious

Long story short:

- My boiler (performa 28 - potterton) has flagged up a pressure fault
- Boiler is static rock solid at 0.5 bar (has been for 12 months)
- I bleed radiators - 5 in the house and 2 have a bit of air.
- Return back to boiler and it has lost 0.1 - 0.2.
- I top boiler up with about 0.3 taking it the gauge up to 0.7
- turn boiler back on and pressure fault light still blinking.
- Engineer is called out via boiler insurance from a well known energy supplier
- Engineer asks for manual - I offer pdf he declines
- I return back after 10mins to find the engineer with mobile phone wedged between sholuder and ear dealing with water all over the place and buckets under boiler - I leave him to it
- I return back another 10 mins later and he on the phone ordering parts but has moment to talk - he says the boiler has had a leak and has damaged lots of parts.
- I return 5 mins later to find engineer in his van and a sticker on the boiler saying "RISK out of use etc.
- Engineer returns with paperwork for me to sign and says the boiler is BER "beyond economical repair". His company will not authorise the repair and will pass on paper work to the well known energy supply I currently have insurance with.
- Engineer is off


The paper work says - "Boiler leaking inside" - parts required:


- PCB board
- pump
- PVR
- 3 way valve
- pressure gauge


To note:
- There has been a pressure fault before with this boiler - the previous engineer had to open it up and flick a switch that was jamed or stuck? He was gone within 5mins. That was 12 months ago - since then the system has held solid pressure until recently the fault kept coming back. I would solve the issue by turning the system off and then on. The boiler would fire up and work until the fault came up and I would turn off and then on....etc


Needless to say I am a bit skeptical about the work carried out yesterday by the engineer. I must add I'm no expert. I've read up quite a it about this boiler and pressure faults in general and this does not add up to me.


In my mind logic suggests that if the boiler was holding rock steady pressure with no sign of water/residue on the boiler or floor (I had to touch the pipe work under the boiler to release some air into the system as mentioned earlier) then there was no leak.


The engineer carrys out some work and water is leaking out all over the place.


Then I am landed with a list of parts that need replacing (including the electrics - PCB board) that appeared to working along with a pressure gauge that was defiantly working. So that's two parts from his list that were working before he came.


After speaking with a few Gas Safe engineers they were shocked that 5 parts would go at once on a boiler.


I guess, I'm writing this post to find out weather other people 'in the know' thought about this case?


I am awaiting a call from this well known energy supplier to find out weather they agree with the engineers BER report or whether they will over turn it and repair the boiler and replace the parts. If they agree and refuse to repair the boiler then I want as much evidence as possible to contest their judgment.


The insurance cover £500 parts and labour. I costed those parts from a website and estimated between 300-400 excluding labour. I guess the labour would send the cost well over £500 hence their position to claim the boiler BER


I be really grateful for any feedback on this case. Many thanks

 

[Riley]

Get a second opinion mate. Pay to get an independent GSR engineer to take a look. Practically speaking if all those things are actually kaput then yes I'd agree with their diagnosis re not repairing. Sadly I don't think we can comment on The faults other than to say that if there was no leak prior to the visit then I would at least raise the issue with the company. I suspect that it will become a your word against theirs scenario. If the engineer caused a leak I'd question how the hell he did it. I'm not doubting what you say but often there are to sides to these stories as I'm sure you will appreciate

 

[Millsy 82]

What you need is a second opinion.

I can tell you now it is very very rare that I have had to change 5 parts in 1 boiler at the same time.

Somebody who looks at the boiler could possibly say no it doesn't need x and y.

Don't cost up parts off the internet. I refuse to get parts off the internet as if there is a problem (we all know how gentle couriers are) it is a pain in the rear, I would rather pay more and be able to walk into a place and throw it at them than deal with someone over the phone.

Once you have used your other gas safe engineer and if you trust them then ditch your insurance cover! It's a waste of time and put the money you would spend into a savings account instead and use when needed.

Also post up your location someone on here might be able to help you.

 

[Bobismyuncle]

What you need is a second opinion.

I can tell you now it is very very rare that I have had to change 5 parts in 1 boiler at the same time.

Somebody who looks at the boiler could possibly say no it doesn't need x and y.

Don't cost up parts off the internet. I refuse to get parts off the internet as if there is a problem (we all know how gentle couriers are) it is a pain in the rear, I would rather pay more and be able to walk into a place and throw it at them than deal with someone over the phone.

Once you have used your other gas safe engineer and if you trust them then ditch your insurance cover! It's a waste of time and put the money you would spend into a savings account instead and use when needed.

Also post up your location someone on here might be able to help you.

Thanks for the reply. I do not intend buy any of the parts, I just wanted to get some sort of perspective. The plan is to push forward with getting the boiler repaired. I fear I will have to go head to head with the energy company tomorrow if they deem the boiler beyond economical repair. I want to make the point that I'm not sure the boiler required all 5 parts before he arrived. And the claim that there was a leak in the system does not add up. For starters the gauge was working I watched it increase when I added air to the system. Inevitably, I will get a second opinion if the decision does not fall in my favour. As Riley suggests it will be my word against theirs (two sides to the story). However, They inspected the boiler themselves (the same outsourced plumbing company that came yesterday) and gave it the ok and then 5 parts all go at the same time. Damaged by a leak with a system holding pressure.

A leak damaging all all those parts when the system was holding rock steady pressure (for 12 months) does that even make sense? A leak would suggest a loss in pressure? Is this right?

 

[tamz]

The fault on your boiler was a simple repair that could possibly been fixed without the need of a part. It is a common fault as these boilers age.
Sounds like the "engineer" (in the loosest terms possible) hadn't a clue what he was doing and there is every chance with the amount of water flying around you will need a pcb but he is at fault.
Get on to whatever company it was and demand a meeting with a senior engineer.
I'm all for giving guys a bit slack and a fair crack at the whip as we've all had to learn somewhere usually from mistakes but its a pity you never took some pictures of the clown.

 

[SmokeyJ]

As previously said its very unlikely to need to replace those 5 parts in a single breakdown and I would be doubtful they all need replacing. Pcb quite possibly water damaged as in a prone position if you have a leak.
Having no apparent leak to having him catching water in buckets would lead me to think it was something he did to cause a leak of that scale? It may have been a disaster waiting to happen but who knows? Only way to confirm is to get a second opinion. If the engineer was to fault or not all parts needed ask for a report of some description and it gives you something to go back to them with.

 

[Knappers]

The fault on your boiler was a simple repair that could possibly been fixed without the need of a part. It is a common fault as these boilers age.
Sounds like the "engineer" (in the loosest terms possible) hadn't a clue what he was doing and there is every chance with the amount of water flying around you will need a pcb but he is at fault.
Get on to whatever company it was and demand a meeting with a senior engineer.
I'm all for giving guys a bit slack and a fair crack at the whip as we've all had to learn somewhere usually from mistakes but its a pity you never took some pictures of the clown.

Granted it sounds that way but I have an issue with knowing it was simple, have you been there? (please replace 'was' with 'may have been' or 'was probably' :smiley2
I'm sure we've all had simple jobs gone wrong, I had one once involving a random rusty BI elbow on inlet to copper cylinder that went - I was only checking the valves.

I did put it right tho

Get an engineer to take a look and it will give you a much stronger position and solid facts to negotiate with. I wouldn't consider arguing a point without all the info.

 

[Bobismyuncle]

Thanks for all your replies and advice. I will aim to get an independent on standby to check out the boiler if the outcome is not favourable!


Just had a phone call stating that they are still waiting for their engineer to verify and make a decision. But the call centre agent (and common sense) suggests that the list of parts he has listed makes the boiler BER. He took a detailed account of the scenario and is taking the already existing complaint further. I need to keep the energy supplier on my side to take on the out sourced plumbing company the carried out the 'work'.

 

[Millsy 82]

What level of cover have you got?

It surprises me that £500 is beyond economical repair when some people I have talked to whilst covering this type of work were paying £300+ per year. So in effect they are paying for an annual check and then if the boiler is BER then they have wasted XX amount of pounds

 

[tamz]

(please replace 'was' with 'may have been' or 'was probably' :

I can 99.9% guarantee it is a was, not may have been or was probably.
Ladbooks wouldn't have taken a bet on it or as they say they would take a bet on anything maybe i should diversify and give up doing this stuff for a living.

 

[tamz]

Serious point here
what kinda odds do you think they would give on a 1st fix fault find cos i'd play that game

 

[tamz]

Thanks for all your replies and advice. I will aim to get an independent on standby to check out the boiler if the outcome is not favourable!


Just had a phone call stating that they are still waiting for their engineer to verify and make a decision. But the call centre agent (and common sense) suggests that the list of parts he has listed makes the boiler BER. He took a detailed account of the scenario and is taking the already existing complaint further. I need to keep the energy supplier on my side to take on the out sourced plumbing company the carried out the 'work'.

It is a shame they knackered your boiler for a 10 minute fix or at worst a £45 part

 

[Knappers]

I can 99.9% guarantee it is a was, not may have been or was probably.
Ladbooks wouldn't have taken a bet on it or as they say they would take a bet on anything maybe i should diversify and give up doing this shy te for a living.

Seriously...
I'd only bet what I was prepared to loose - regardless the odds

(By the way 99.9% is a probability! ie. 99.9% was = probably was)

You might have hit a pet-peeve so sorry, I've little doubt your right and it's not personal, don't quit petal!
:30:

 

[tamz]

Seriously...
I'd only bet what I was prepared to loose - regardless the odds

(By the way 99.9% is a probability! ie. 99.9% was = probably was)

You might have hit a pet-peeve so sorry, I've little doubt your right and it's not personal, don't quit petal!
:30:

Lol. I should have said 100% because i know exactly what was the problem without seeing it.

 

[stevetheplumber]

i dont know how with the boiler dead you could actually diagnose five parts that were not working

 

[Knappers]

Surely he's :nono: it, But was it 'highlighting an existing fault', an honest mistake or just pure incompetence?

Must admit, scarpering and leaving the customer with the mess doesn't look good.
But then neither does sitting drying out parts with a hair dryer!

Would like to know how they're getting on tho.............?

 

[Bobismyuncle]

Here’s the update.

Yesterday I received a phone call from well known energy company to confirm after 5 days of waiting that the engineer at their offices has (unsurprisingly) confirmed the diagnosis and report of the boiler as beyond economic repair (BER) and have closed the case. The customer service representative notified my that this decision was made with support of the information I posted the in bullet point in my original post. Essentially the same info you have read and based your opinions on. I have been told that I will receive any further support from my insurance in any shape or form. I did request a senior engineer from the outsourced plumbing company to take a look at the boiler for a second opinion but they refused.

I was handed a complaint reference number and refered to a webpage on their website to pursue a complaint if I was not happy.

Immediately after this phone call I contacted an independent engineer I had sourced earlier in the week ready for this outcome. I explained over the phone very briefly that the boiler had extensive parts list quoted for it’s repair and I could detect he was up for the challenge. Engineer arrived within 3 hours of my call with 2 other engineers to take a look. It was end of their day and were coincidentally in the van together.

They attempted to add a bit of pressure to the system and could see a leak coming for a nut that fixed the pressure gauge to the 3 way valve. They deduced that the previous engineer had undone this nut and caused a leak. But, in an attempt to fix it the previous engineer over tightened and damaged the nut and so it had left the system with a permanent leak and the rest of the boiler drenched in water. The pressure gauge wire had also been partial snapped which they thought would have effected the accuracy of the gauge itself. Maybe this was why I was seeing pressure in the system holding at 0.5 for 11months but allowed the system to keep firing up?

The engineers sourced a new pressure gauge for £19 and return back after 20mins to fit it. Pressure was added to the system but the pressure fault light was still flashing. They adjusted a switch/valve on the 3 way valve which (they said) sends a message to the boiler to fire up and so it did indeed fire up. In their opinion this was causing the intermittent fault. Their diagnosis was a dodgy switch/valve which they thought could be repaired with a diaphragm kit (?) (around £20) So now the boiler works but I need to get that looked at.

The engineer was happy to speak to the customer service manager dealing with my case (which was considered a closed case 4 hours earlier) and submit his registered gas number, diagnosis, solution and opinion of the previous engineers diagnosis and list of parts to repair the boiler.

The customer service manager gave me a call today to request an invoice of which i sent him and now await their next move.

Forgive me if this description lack the technical articulation. I’m still getting my head around boilers.

Thanks for all your advice! It gave me the energy and determination to pursue this issue / F*** up.

The cherry on the cake was the energy company giving me call this morning to sell me a new boiler

 

[Riley]

Can we suggest as has been mentioned. Bin the big company and keep the details of the local gsr