powerflushing, radiators may still be black!

[mike_s]

Powerflushed a system today for a new combi to go in, coming out was an old open vented pumped central heating system with a multipoint for the hot water - no cylinder.

I've done about 6 powerflushes previously until crystal clear, using an anton powerflush machine connected to the flow and return pipes from removing the kitchen radiator.

Always been treated previously with cleanser, F3 or X400 for up to a week before. usually the pipes flushed on their own then the radiators one by one.

Today we got out a fair amount of dirt but nothing substantial from the pipes and each radiator using the powerflush until the water ran clear and also regulary reversed the flow. It was only when changing a radiator valve afterwards we noticed the water was still thick black, worse than anything that had come out of the powerflush. We took the radiators off and flushed them outside with a hose pipe, tilting them a few times until they ran clear. Completely black like they hadn't been flushed at all, couldn't believe how bad they were.

Now I do think that powerflushing must still be the best practice for flushing the pipes but surely the only way to get it all out is to remove the radiators and manually flush outside? Anybody do this? In future I will be inclined to do it with almost all radiators that need thoroughly cleaning.

Or how about one of those fancy power flush filters? We have now fitted a magnaclean to this system and will be going back in a week to check it out.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

i dont power flush i always manual flush,even with power flushing the rads have to come off

 

[mike_s]

i dont power flush i always manual flush,even with power flushing the rads have to come off

Yes but I'm sure in 99% of powerflushes they don't and I don't believe that any super high power magnetic filter would have got it all out of this system. Not with my machine, maybe the Anton machine is crap.
Anybody want to remove a radiator after powerflushing a really black system that has also been chemically treated and let us know If you are surprised with how much black is still left in???

 

[Blackcatgas]

The advantage of power flushing with a machine, (a good machine) over just flushing it with a hose in the garden is that you can run chemicals through at at a higher flow rate at a hotter temp (50 ish degrees) the higher temp gets the chemicals really working.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

i put sentinel x8oo ferroquest in run the system for 30 hours that sorts it out then i remove the rads clean them,flush pipework,reinstate and add x100 i also fit a magna clean once this is done i have never had issues with corrosion and in many cases i will maintain these systems for years to come

 

[mike_s]

Like I said we have the cleanser, F3 or X400 in the system with it working for up to a week before.
However, not used feroquest or the stronger cleansers for a few years, does a nutraliser have to be used after these chemicals and before the inhibitor is added? As the F3 and X400 are already neutral apparantly.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

not any more with ferro-quest they have altered it because it eats aluminium (had a few performa heat exchanger drums fail) but no probs since then to be fair to baxi they sent me new heat exchangers they take 20 mins to change but ferro-quest really gets the system clean

 

[mike_s]

Yeah think might have had problems with air in systems after using feroquest in the past. I just still think that nothing would have got this system cleaner than taking them outside and flushing them manually after chemical treatment and powerflushing. Something which perhaps more people should consider doing rather than just a powerflush and assume that'll do.

 

[PlumbingSucks]

never used a powerflush machine cus im a bit sceptical of them. I always ad x400 first then go back remove a rad and put a hose on one valve for mains water and a hose on the other to a drain. open rads one by one and flush through then remove rads and hose out. Can;t see the difference between that and a 1000 pound powerflusher!

 

[Toddyplumb]

Have the machine , sometimes use it , sometimes dont , I am very sceptical. Think about it all you are doing is passing water (and chemical) across the bottom of the rad (unless its diagonally connected , not very often) The pipe size is gonna limit flow.
Even after vibrating rads there is still crap in them, less than there was but its still there

 

[aggis]

Have found Fernox & Sentinel products will clean systems pretty well with a P F machine, F5 & X800 best, but with severely fouled systems Kamco's FX2 comes into it's own [ not for use with allumium ]. It does take longer as you have to neutralise it. Often will dose system with Fernox F3 or x400 to pre-clean.
Always use a TDS meter & ph paper to confirm it's clean & neutral.

 

[mike_s]

Never used a TDS meter or PH paper but been meaning to try them. I would be surprised if they picked up much if the water looks clear and there is so much black water just not moving from inside the radiator?
Never used F5 or X800 either, I'll look into them, cheers.

Still think it's no where near as good as assumed and in some cases the only way to be sure is take the radiator off and flush outside.

I even wrote an article on my website on powerflushing a few months ago but in future in some cases the radiators will have to come off the wall I think.
Check it out if you like Ainsdale Gas Heating & Plumbing Powerflushing - Bring new life into old radiators

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

looked at your site impressive sorry to see you have a sherpa been there paid the maintenance bills my condolences moving on manual flushing is the best way forward its thorough,but the right chemicals are important

 

[mike_s]

cheers mate, picked up a bottle of X800 today and got another power flush to do next week so will put that in the day before.

 

[gasmarc]

i did the kamco course years ago and ended up buying the same machine that kamco sell for £800 odd for less than half price from ABCOT UK , The reason people remove rads is because they have not flushed them correctly , I have not used these new powerflushing magnets but they are suppose to be the business ,well for £300 they should be , but the advantage is it only requires one pass , I have powerflushed a system before where my mate was helping me isolating valves etc, he disappeared down the shops while i did the last rad. Job finished everything heating up except the last rad , I had to return the next day and it was full of crude oil

 

[mike_s]

The reason people remove rads is because they have not flushed them correctly

I find this hard to believe, What more can I do that treat the system for a week before then flush all the pipes and each radiator individually? With every power flush I've done we've always got the most black out of the kitchen radiator we took off to connect the machine to and flushed manually outside.

The next black system you go to why don't you try taking a downstairs radiator off after the power flush and see if it's as crystal clear as the water coming out of the dump hose, I think it probably will not be.

 

[FD Powerflow]

I ractically powerflush for a living and Ill be honest I swear by my in line filter to the point I have two on my return hose. Chemicals like DS40/F5 and X800 get the sludge moving but you need a decent flow rate and or filter to stop the sludge from resettling and just sitting in the bottom of the rad.

I know what you mean about still finding sludge in the system and as a result of seeing it for myself I invested in the filters for my machine, but still insist on fitting a TF1 to the system at the end.

The way I see it especially if your swapping open vented/back boiler to combi your putting 2 bar of pressure and a higher temperature flow onto the system and in any chemical reaction heat an pressure increase the way it works so the TF1 is my belt and braces to stop any issues once im gone.

 

[Plucky]

If you remove a rad and connect into system that way you have to be a bit clever about what your machikne is going to do. Sometimes it will bypass certain parts of the system I.E. rather than going around a particular rad it may just whizz round the boiler (quite common on combis) So you think you are flushing a rad and really your not. You have to think logically.

I always try and get into the primary flow somehow, normally on the pump valves. Get a better flush and you can keep the boiler on easier.


FD Powerflow where do you get these inline fliters from?

 

[tamz]

I moved into my present house 3 years ago. 1st thing i did was rip the boiler out and repipe most of the pipes under the floor (it had been a solid fuel at one time converted to gas and the pipes took a lonnnngggg road for a shortcut). Over the past couple of years and a few more changes, the only thing original left on the system is 2 attic rads and about 30ft of 1/2" pipe.
At the time i first changed things i powerflushed it and have had the apprentice do it another 3 or 4 times when i was quiet and when he was doing it he was at it for a full 8 hrs. Every time there is still some muck comes out. Done it with X800 and once with FX2.

Powerflushing will never completely clean a system.

 

[mike_s]

Interesting replies cheers guys. Can't wait to try this X800 and will try connecting to the pump instead when practical, as well as taking off radiators more often as surely the best way, tilting them and filling them up with a hose pipe then releasing when full. We always make sure the radiators are full when powerflushing but I'm more sure of the job when flushing it manually outside.

 

[gasmarc]

when i got my powerflushing machine years ago there was no way of discharging the dirt without having to introduce more chemicals, I have since come to the conclusion that the only way to avoid this is to have the huge magnets that cost around £300 ouch this way everytime dirt comes back to the machine it is caught also it helps to have the boiler running at full belt if possible

 

[moogwai]

Like FDPOWERFLOW said....i practically powerflush for a living and find that i can take massive amounts of sludge out of a system using a combination of my powerflush machine, i run 2 in-line filters(just to make sure), vibraclean,infared thermometer and tds + ph meters.
When flushing a combination system i always cut into the flow and return to isolate boiler from the system and heat the water with what is in effect a immersion heater. Using all this i beleive you get 90% of the magnatite out the system and will always advise customers to have a magnaclean/tf1 fitted as a safe guard to their system.
I however will not entertain powerflushing a system with 8mm piping on as you will not get the velocity of water rushing through the rad to make the flush effective....i always tell my customers they'd be better off upgrading the pipework to get the system running more effectively. 10mm pipe is just about ok as long as there is no kinks in the pipework.
I have spent 45mins on cleaning just one rad at times and had to clean my filters out after doing this!!
everybody has their own preferred methods and there is no right answer.