Landlord possibly fake CP12

[familyshopper]

Hello there,

I am a tenant and I have a few problems with my, sometimes aggressive, landlord.

I was taken ill over the weekend with carbon monoxide poisoning. My entire family was.
We're okay now, as far as we know. An ambulance came. we were taken care of and have had a lucky escape.
The problem, it seems, is the boiler in the house we rent.
The landlord and a gas engineer (gas safe certified) came to see it yesterday and have turned it off, as well as the gas and we will be getting a new boiler soon.

Here lies the problem. I don't have a copy of a CP12. I honestly cannot remember being given one. I've been here over a year and have only had a gas engineer out once. That was September 2013.
The landlord is saying that he has the CP12 and will bring me a copy. He's also saying that the certificate is okay for another month.
I don't believe that he has one. If he does, then it would have run out in September. Neither of us can remember a time during last November where an engineer came out to do the checks and give us the certificate.
My husband and I don't have any emails, texts or other correspondence with him about it or about a gas engineer coming out to check the boiler and give us our copy of the certificate.
With regards to the "copy" that he's going to bring us. I suspect that it may be fake or doctored.
What can we do about this, if it is?

Is it possible that a copy could be doctored and changed?
How can this be [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]verified?
I know that it would have to be a really stupid gas engineer that would do that for somebody, but it might happen.
What checks can we do to check if the certificate is legitimate?

Thank you in advance.
P[/FONT]

 

[wildcard]

Hi There
Sorry to hear of your co poisoning,i hope you & your family are all well now.You should of been left/e-mailed or had your cp12 posted to you.If the gas engineer had carried out a cp12 there are 3 duplicate copies in the pad,one for you,one for the l/lord & one for the gas engineer.
The cp12 is valid for 12 months only from the date of issue,after this date it is invalid.
The cp12 will give you the engineers details & there gas safe number which can be verified by gas safe.
I would report this incident to the HSE & gas safe & they will investigate on your behalf.Do not let your l/lord bully you or intimadate you.If he is found to be neglegent,sue him for every penny he"s got.Do not forget he has put you & your family in grave danger!!

 

[diamondgas]

Check this out Important gas safety advice for landlords

Info on there should be of assistance.

 

[bigads28]

I would suggest you contact gas safe and the HSE. They can carry out all the necessary checks for you.

 

[Neil K]

Good you and your family are ok. Please keep us posted on the outcome of this

 

[Riley]

Wait and see if GS take any action. One would hope so. Very interested in the outcome of this

 

[julesverne]

Found this form on the Health and safety executive web site. You can use this report your landlord for failing to provide an annual gas safety record.
https://extranet.hse.gov.uk/lfserver/external/lgsr1
although i would report this to gas safe by calling them on

0800 408 5500

 

[oz-plumber]

Hi Familyshopper,

I'm not sure of the regs over there, but you have had a very, very close call.

If you and you and your family ceased due to CO poisoning, every authority under the sun would be investigating and prosecuting.

Just because you didn't cease - do not let this stop you from having a full investigation done and having whoever needs to be prosecuted, prosecuted.

You may not be so lucky next time.

Pretty dim view on things but CO poisoning is very serious - 2 kids died over here due to CO poisoning a couple of years back.

Absolutely horrible and totally avoidable.

Oz Plumber

 

[Reg Man]

Glad you are all OK. The emergency gas transporter (0800111999) should have been called and made your installation safe by capping the supply and this incident should have been reported to the HSE. An independent investigation would have been instigated at the gas suppliers cost. If the evidence has not been disturbed it is not to late to report this. If anything has been touched then it I will be difficult to complete an accurate reconstruction and investigation.

 

[Millsy 82]

It should be fairly straight forward to tell if a landlord gas safety certificate has been written up at a later date as they all have serial numbers on them. So if someone was stupid enough to do it and you got gas safe involved a quick look at the companies cp12 around that time will tell them.

I would 100% call gas safe and get them involved as you could of died. If the landlord didnt get it checked then what do you think he is going to do when it comes to a new boiler? probably cheapest quote going.

 

[Halesowen1]

You had a lucky escape.

 

[morganb]

Do they have to have a serial number, even if it did surely you can just claim you found a spare cert loose. I've made my own PDF form to fill in, although I don't use it for landlords, I have considered it.

I don't know of any gas installer that would fake a CP12, the very fact a landlord is asking should set of alarm bells. There can't be anyone out there desperate enough to do this. OP if you do get a copy of the CP12, the engineers number will be on there, give them a call and ask if they're confident the cert if legit, as you've involved the HSE with a CO poisoning. You should be able to hear their arse clenching down the phone. Also check all the details on the Gas Safe website, there's a button to check an engineer/company is legit.

I can well believe a landlord would fake a CP12 himself there's examples every month in the Gas Safe mag, it's also easy enough to buy a pad of ebay, go on the gas safe website and get details of some poor sod and fill it in without him knowing.

Whatever happens, contact Gas Safe, who should get the HSE involved.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Hello
I certainly know of 2 prosecutions for Fake or altered CP12s.
- 1 was written in a book that had not been printed when the date was written. Another was altered. But it is possible for them to get away with a fake, Most people just aren't that clever or careful. - actually If he was clever and careful your boiler would have been checked within the last year and you would know about it.
-


Wait and see what he gives you.
There might be something obvious that makes it fake.
It is the HSE that you need to report your concerns to and they will investigate.
Also, I 'm sure you have now invested £20 or so in a Carbon Monoxide alarm - money well spent.

I am pleased you are safe and I hope you tell lots of people about your experience as many people are not aware of the risks and are not aware that low levels of CO might be making themill.
There are few deaths but 4,000 in the UK attend hospital A&E each year due to CO poisoning.

 

[AWheating]

did the engineer who came out to check with the landlord issue you some paperwork detailing the faults found?

 

[familyshopper]

did the engineer who came out to check with the landlord issue you some paperwork detailing the faults found?

Hi all and thanks for your comments and suggestions.

The new boiler has now been fitted. I took photos of the old boiler which had lots of soot around the inside of the outer casing...if that makes sense?

It's currently looking like the landlord doesn't have a CP12 and may not have had one for this property for over 12 months.

We're just looking into what would be the best course of action.

 

[Millsy 82]

Have you got one for this boiler? Also have they filled out the benchmark at the back of the installation manual.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Have you got one for this boiler? Also have they filled out the benchmark at the back of the installation manual.

You do not need a Gas Safety Inspection Report (CP12) for a new boiler or any new gas appliance. There must be an inspection report within 12 months of the install.

 

[Millsy 82]

You do not need a Gas Safety Inspection Report (CP12) for a new boiler or any new gas appliance. There must be an inspection report within 12 months of the install.

Are you 100% certain of that? I always thought it had to have one no matter what.

 

[Ermintrude]

You do not need a Gas Safety Inspection Report (CP12) for a new boiler or any new gas appliance. There must be an inspection report within 12 months of the install.

Only covers the new work and not existing appliances !

 

[kirkgas]

If there's only one appliance in a rented property then the notification is all that's required, doesn't matter when the current LGSC runs out, as the pipework etc doesn't even actually have to be recorded on the form, although most engineers do a TT and include it on the LGSC, so it's only when the boiler is one year old that a new LGSC will be required
It seems quite a lot,of engineers arent aware of this,

 

[Millsy 82]

If there's only one appliance in a rented property then the notification is all that's required, doesn't matter when the current LGSC runs out, as the pipework etc doesn't even actually have to be recorded on the form, although most engineers do a TT and include it on the LGSC, so it's only when the boiler is one year old that a new LGSC will be required
It seems quite a lot,of engineers arent aware of this,

Well you learn something new everyday.

I always fill one out anyway even if not rented just to show that I have checked it etc

 

[julesverne]

Hi Familyshopper

did you check that the guy who fitted the boiler was gas safe registered. i only ask because if you have had co poisoning due to the negligent behaviour of your landlord, i wouldnt trust him to use a registered gas engineer either. you can always ask Gas safe to come and check your boiler installation as my guess it wont even get registered to gas safe.

any chance you could post some pics of the new boiler?

 

[AWheating]

best to do a cert for a new boiler so the landlord and tennant has a reference for the next check and you have a paper trail, etc.....

 

[kirkgas]

AWheating, the notification should be the trigger for next years LGSC, only relevant if it's only the boiler with no other appliances or LGSC will still be in force to cover the other appliances

 

[Reg Man]

An other unreported CO incident.

 

[AWheating]

AWheating, the notification should be the trigger for next years LGSC, only relevant if it's only the boiler with no other appliances or LGSC will still be in force to cover the other appliances

just saying what i thinks best for the engineer and tennant as they both would not have a notification cert. Also plenty never notified anyway of course. As a tennant i would never assume my landlord was on the ball, well apart from collecting the rent

 

[FunkyOstrich]

Hi, you had a very close call. Report it as soon as you can. Waiting for a new boiler means you are left with no hot water and its getting cold now. People die of CO poisoning regularly in other countries. Strict laws in the UK almost assures that this never happens. In my view this doesn't just happen overnight. I was a gas installer in South Africa and this mostly happens when there is very poor ventilation in your home and an inadequate flue . Your boiler needs O2 to burn and only if the room is depleted of it will it start emitting CO. Your boiler should be vented properly and have a flue that goes straight out to get rid of the CO2. Your landlord should also supply you with carbon monoxide alarms for most rooms. This is the law, not an option for the landlord.

Thank goodness you survived to tell the story!

 

[familyshopper]

An other unreported CO incident.

We have reported it.

We have reported it to Gas Safe who have passed on the details to the HSE. It's now pretty mud out of our hands and will be dealt with as a criminal matter, rather than a personal injury one.
The Gas Safe certificate was overdue by either 1 month or 13 months. Either way, if it had been done properly we wouldn't have got ill and I wouldn't be waking up sweating in the middle of the night with nightmares of when I just watched my son fall asleep with a bad headache the weekend it was happening. If I'd fallen asleep as well I doubt I'd be here writing this now.

The landlord also neglected to protect the deposit, so he's being reported for that too.
He owns several properties.
We can't wait to be out of this place.

Thanks for all your comments.
I'll keep you posted of how it goes.

 

[Riley]

Small mercies. Please keep us informed how this progresses

 

[julesverne]

Thankyou familyshopper for taking the time to reply back. We would be very interested to hear how it goes. Thanks for keeping us posted.

 

[Reg Man]

Thank you Family Shopper for your update. Glad you are all safer now. Good that you reported your incident to gas safe, but really should have gone direct to HSE. They are the government body who have the tools for enforcement. You landlord sounds like he needs to be taken to task, the HSE have the power. What region do you live in?

 

[Black]

glad you and family are all ok, my advice is from now on if you move into any new property weither rented or not, enquire about gas safety record well before it is too late

 

[Matty Birch]

bang out of order, by law landlord has 28 days to give you safety records from issue date, can't turn up with it later on down the line when there's a problem, he's obviously neglected his duties that are there for a reason and in doing so has put your families lives at risk, Sue him for all the trouble he's caused, start with the hse