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Plouasne

Why is it in the UK combi boilers are just that, without hot water storage built into the boiler frame work

Most of the combi type and normal boilers in France have an integral cylinder built into the boiler frame work, the cylinders are from 80 litres to 140 litres, and the boilers are capable of flows of 20 litres or more a minute with a temperature rise of 40°c, be they gas or oil fired, wall mounted or floor standing
 
some uk combis have water storage, but imho why store hot water when you can heat it as req, cheaper to run and probably why uk market doesnt go in for stored water, initial prices higher and cost a bit more to run.

Forgot to add, who the heck wants to lift a stored water boiler onto a wall, they r heavy enough as it is, and im getting weaker as i get older
 
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All I seam to do is remove oil combies and fit heat only boilers and unvented around here.
 
people are starting to learn that combis arent the panacea we all thought they were, but they are easy to fit
 
Whats the output of a combi ??

Frisquet Hydroconfort Condensation 109% output, with 80 litre cylinder can give 20 litres/minuet with a 40°c temperature rise, and 300 litres an hour
with a 120 litre cylinder the output is 24 litres/minuet 40°c temp rise, and 450 litres an hour
The boiler has a modulating burner 4 kW/hr to 20 kW/hr
It is possible for two different heating circuits to be run off the boiler, including an underfloor heating circuit
The are tappings on the cylinder for a second circuit for hot water
3 way motorised valve, pump, and is equipped with a 12 litre expansion vessel
A 50°c overheat limiter on the hot water circuit
Electronic ignition and a flame ionisation probe
What more could you ask for from a boiler, give me one of these any day to a poxy combi
 
In France this....In France that.....hasn't France got a plumbers forum?
 
Mark,

Whilst I was a "London" trained plumber (and at the time us London trained plumbers reckoned we were the best), I think that I have been lucky and had the opportunity to work in the Trucial Oman as it was then, its the United Arab Emirates now, also Saudi Arabia working with American equipment, then for the last 20 years in France

I like to be a bit of a devils advocate at times, and say how I find things on the other side of the channel, if it makes people think outside of the UK only box, and see how others in other countries do the job, it might help them some time in the future, whilst plumbing is plumbing, there is a hell of a difference of doing the same job in different countries

My work has covered just about all there is in plumbing over the 50 odd years of being in the trade
Sheet lead, copper, zinc and aluminium
Copper tube from 6 mm to 150 mm, including sand bending of it, hand forming branches, soft and hard soldering, bronze welding, with just a touch of copper to copper autogenous sheet welding without a filler rod
Black and galvanised iron from 3/8 to 4" cutting it with a hacksaw, screwing it with hand stocks which were not geared down
Cast Iron drain and water main from 2" to 12" both run lead joints and rubber ring joints, including the use of temporary and permanent "thrust blocks" to restrain the forces generated by the flowing water in a pipeline
Lead pipe from 1/2" to 4" wiping joints and bobbin bending it
Plastic PVC and polyethylene 3/8" to 150 mm, solvent welding the PVC, and electro fusion welding the poly
Plus a spell in the drawing office

I admit that I am not up to speed with the UK regs (but from over here it looks like there are a load of jobworths getting in the way of people working properly)

Here its you know it, and if you don't and make a muck up of the job, your assurance goes through the roof
Nobody can just get a set of tools and call themselves a trades person, before they can get registered they have to do a weeks "schooling" book-keeping, the law on how it affects you and your work, VAT, etc, then you have to get a 10 years assurance for new work, and a 2 years assurance for repairs, (this will set you back a few thousand euros,) [also the "fisc" (the tax office) will be putting in an independent book keeper to check that you are keeping the books right (cost to you 100€/month)] new electrical and gas work has to be inspected and signed off, either by an independent inspector or for gas only by an operative if the firm is registered

[on a side note, I once signed of a bulk propane installation, and the boss stressed if there was an accident it would not be just me in prison, but he would be joining me as well ]

Some of my work is down your way, Looe secondary school sports hall, Saltash College of Further Education, and Liskeard Magistrates Court, unless they have been altered in the last 25 years are my jobs, plumbing and lead work

Another note on thrust blocks, a mate of mine was doing a 2" galvanised pipeline, he had a 100 yards run in the ground open, without any covering to hold the pipe down, for the inspector to inspect it, it was all jointed with PTFE tape, with a plug in the end of the run, without a stop block, the inspector said I want to see 200 lbs/sq inch, so my mate started to pump it up, he got to about 130 lbs/sq inch, when the pipes all spun themselves apart, because there was no restraint to stop them from doing so

Taylor Woodrow M&E division run a new 12" Tyton jointed cast iron fire main around the Ford Autolight works in Enfield, last week end of the fortnight shut down, with all the trenches back filled it was to be the first and last test on the fire main 200 lbs/sq inch for an hour, it never got to above 170 lbs/sq inch, the design engineers was summoned to explain on the saturday, he could not understand why it would not hold, I asked have you got any thrust blocks on the line ??, thrust blocks ? what are they when I explained what they were and why they were used, he went white and said no, two weeks later the job was finished but it cost TW a fortnights extra shut down of the works

Sorry if the post is a long read, but if it helps some one to not make a mistake in some way or another from reading what I post at times in answer to other posters, my job is done I have passed on the knowledge that I was taught by my elders
 
I had an Atmos Multi boiler fitted just before Christmas. It is actually a Dutch design, but rebranded by Atmos UK.

It sounds a lot like your French boiler. It holds 80 litres, which can fill a bath with very hot water. It also refills/reheats in 10 mins. The manual says it can support three showers at the same time.

There is a video on you-tube showing a plumber fitting one. To me, it seems to combine the best features of a combi and a storage system. It is very efficient, and I am pleased with it. You can also add a solar system to it with a separate cylinder but integrated controls (which I plan to do when I can afford it).
 
Just a personal opinion
I have just had a look at the Atmos Multi boiler web site
The engineer has done himself proud and done a very good job of the video
However after watching it and looking at spec and installation manual do not see anything here that would want me to install one,if a customer requested one,I would have no problem with design or build quality and would install,its just to me there would always be a better option available,which is probably why not many are fitted here
The size is a big factor and you still need a good water mains and gas supply
Size it very important in the UK due to small home units being built,it says it does three showers but most new combi's will do two and if three required ,the size of house involved,the total hot water requirements would probably not be met by this unit and in the same space a boiler and unvented cylinder could be fitted,it is not just the space the unit takes ,it is also the equipment required below that takes up so much space
It has a 10min or so heat recovery time ,say after bath is run and that is to 70%,with heating on ,it would be more,then a few taps turned on in between,time soon increased,also if you run out of hot water,you are not going to have heating until hot water recovered and a thought ,not only would your heating be off until hot water recovered but also you would be loosing heat from radiators into hot water storage unit,maybe also they could have fitted immersion heater back up
They say quick installation but fitting boiler and unvented cylinder but would not much more and extra cost against extra benefit would be budgetable
also scaling of storage unit most be an issue as 1mm of scale reduce heat recovery a lot,so now we have the issue of cost of and what water softener to use
One thing I did not like was in the installation instructions

1.2. The manufacturer instructions must not be taken
as overriding statutory requirements.

They may think they are covering themselves,however they are also making impossible to install,

Before the new generation of combi's,many manufacturers provided hot water storage units to fit on their combi models if required,however with new generation pre heat is often enough to give that quick response required and after that the boiler can cope
In France and other countries the engineers are a lot more closely connected to the manufacturers and tend to be more loyal and put in what is recommended by the manufacturer
In the Uk we tend to put in what ever is best for the installation involved and requirements needed,often I have gone to a merchants and an engineer will have a chose of two boilers,same cost ,one will have offers,fleeces,key rings and buy 10 and get a fee weekend,however engineer will go for best boiler for situation and reliability for customer even if this means going with boiler offering nothing,this a lot of the European manufacturers can not understand
I think if you want a combi,get a combi,if you want stored hot water,get a proper stored water system,not a mish mash of the two,other wise you end up with an over spec unit for some use and a under spec unit for other
IMHO
 
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Cost is a good reason too the uk heating market is very cost sensative, the amount of time Ive spent explaining the virtues of a decent boiler to a customer etc etc then after sending them my quote only to get a call saying "Ive seen one of these x boilers at plumb centre with 8 rads and a cuddly toy for £600" can you fit me one of theses to save myself £300?.
But they will happily spend £1000 on a new tv that is completely over the top than the thing that keeps them warm and provides the hot water at the heart of thier home.
 
agree with puddle to a point.
these boilers/water heaters do have a use though, check out the acv heat master range for a different view of similar system.
 
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