Has anyone ever come across anything like this before?

[Ceno]

Hi, I'm a carpenter renovating my house. I have done all the plumbing (except gas work) under the supervision of my mate who's a plumber. During fitting a new bathroom, I had been struggling to get a seal with a pan connector onto the toilet, which turned out to be a big lump of stray ceramic stuck underneath the outlet. Because I had spent so much time with my head round the toilet, I noticed a sewer smell. The same smell was there two days after successfully sealing the toilet. It was in the cistern, and in the toilet after any time with the seat down. I could not understand how sewer gas was getting through the water trap in the bottom of the toilet. After a bit of thinking I decided that as the cistern was fitted to the pan correctly, the only way for the gas to get in was through the internal overflow. I poured a gallon of water through the overflow pipe (inside the cistern) and not one drop came back into the pan. If water can bypass the U then so can sewer gas! I have spent a couple of hours searching the net for this problem, but found nothing. As I was sure this toilet didn't comply with regs, I phoned WRAS, but they said it's down to the installer to ensure that sanitry ware complies. The supplier has agreed to send a replacement, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a design fault. Has anyone ever come across this problem before?

 

[Alpha man]

I haven't, no, sorry I know that don't help!

 

[Keefy]

I poured a gallon of water through the overflow pipe (inside the cistern) and not one drop came back into the pan.

Did this just cause the cistern to fill up more or did it go 'somewhere'?

 

[Ceno]

The water just went 'somewhere'. As the cistern didn't fill up, and there was no water on the floor, - I assume it went down the soil pipe.

 

[Keefy]

The water just went 'somewhere'. As the cistern didn't fill up, and there was no water on the floor, - I assume it went down the soil pipe.

Are you saying there wasn't even a visible trickle of water running down the back of the pan?

 

[Reg Man]

Very strange, can only think the sanitary ware is faulty.

 

[Toxic Ted]

I had to do a soil stack test with the pan connected and it kept failing. After wasting god knows how much time checking the stack the problem was with the pan. It turns out(pardon the pun) that the flush chamber on the pan had a pathway to the top of the waste outlet through the pan body. We didn't have any odours back but then this was a new build, but I think it could explain how you are getting odours back.

 

[Ceno]

Are you saying there wasn't even a visible trickle of water running down the back of the pan?

Not even a dribble!

 

[Ceno]

I had to do a soil stack test with the pan connected and it kept failing. After wasting god knows how much time checking the stack the problem was with the pan. It turns out(pardon the pun) that the flush chamber on the pan had a pathway to the top of the waste outlet through the pan body. We didn't have any odours back but then this was a new build, but I think it could explain how you are getting odours back.

That sounds very much like the same problem. I probably would have never noticed the smell either. After spending two hours trying to get the pan connector to seal I started to notice it. You can actually 'hear' the sewer through the toilet rim and overflow pipe.

 

[M G]

In twenty years ive never seen or heard anything like that. But saying that there seems to be so many different bathroom suppliers and designs on the Internet at the moment it doesn't suprise me there are some poor designs out there. Only of my plumbers who I trained up came to see me a few weeks back with a body jet that his customer had purchased off the net and the only way you could possibly fix it in place after it was tiled was from behind the solid wall

 

[WHPES]

any photos?

 

[Spanner2k7]

Is it a close coupled pan? If so the pan could be a faulty and there is hole between the Outlet and Inlet of the pan, you would , when you were pouring water down the overflow, unless you have removed all the water out of the pan. I have had 2 pans in the last year like this, and only showed whilst I was doing a Soil Test.

 

[Toxic Ted]

mmmmmmmm........sounds familiar

 

[Ceno]

any photos?

I'm going to try to take some pics later. I will upload them if I can suss out how to!

 

[Ceno]

Is it a close coupled pan? If so the pan could be a faulty and there is hole between the Outlet and Inlet of the pan, you would , when you were pouring water down the overflow, unless you have removed all the water out of the pan. I have had 2 pans in the last year like this, and only showed whilst I was doing a Soil Test.

Yes, it's a cheap close coupled one. I think you have just described the problem! Replaced the pan today, the new one seems fine. The old one has a definite breech on the 'run' to the pan from the coupling. I know this because you can see light from a torch if you shine it around in there! I'll try to post some pics later!

 

[Ceno]

This pic shows the light from the torch shining through the hole which I suspect shouldn't be there.

And again but closer.

The 'x' shows where the hole is.

And further back.

The new toilet didn't have this problem, and seems to be fine.

 

[Reg Man]

Makes you wonder what QC these sanitary ware manufacturers have?

 

[tamz]

I read something last week about introducing CE marking to sanitary wear happening soon. About time too because some of the stuff coming into the country is truly shocking.

 

[Ceno]

Makes you wonder what QC these sanitary ware manufacturers have?

Next to none I expect. The supplier didn't reply to an email for two days, so I cc'd my local trading standards into an email to them- I got a reply within an hour saying that they'd couriered me a replacement and that they had never had this problem before.

 

[Ceno]

I read something last week about introducing CE marking to sanitary wear happening soon. About time too because some of the stuff coming into the country is truly shocking.

I think that I probably wouldn't have noticed the problem had I not had all the issues described in the OP. I was truly amazed that WRAS were not interested in the slightest when I spoke to them regarding this issue. So much so that I also called DEFRA assuming that they would want to know about potentially thousands of toilets steadily leaking water into an already overloaded sewer system (I know this is an issue to them, through my interest in rivers and fishing), but again they couldn't care less. I really hope after this experience that a CE mark is introduced, but with DEFRA and WRAS not wanting to get involved, who would police it?

 

[Reg Man]

Not to helpful then?

 

[Ceno]

Not to helpful then?

No one I spoke to cared at all from the supplier to DEFRA. The only people who were in any way helpful were my local Trading Standard, However I only asked them if they minded me copying them into an email of complaint to the supplier, which they were happy for me to do. I don't know how you plumbers deal with this stuff on a day to day basis - I suppose that's the benefit of finding and building a rapport with a local supplier.

 

[Phil_Plumb]

If i had a dodgy pan from my merchants like that, id have whipped it back out and threw it back at my merchant for supplying me Shhh.... sanitary ware.

And yes CE marking and/or Brit Standards need to apply to sanitary ware too, save us plumbs being supplied with cheap crap!