Gurgling and air in central heating

[jim843]

Just as normal.

Ok, I’ve turned the cold feed off. Hot water tap is open.

I’ve left the boiler settings as normal (heating and hot water on).

 

[jim843]

Just as normal.

Water has been off for a bit two hours. The gauge looks the same as before. About 2.2.

I haven't bled the towel rail today.

 

[jim843]

@John.g

Hot water was off for about 3 hours.

Central heating on as normal.

The gauge looked fine, no drop.

This is the reading:

I then bled the towel rail (quite a lot of air -- maybe 10 seconds worth):

I'd say there's a tiny drop there?

 

[John.g]

Don't think there is any marked difference there than with HW enabled, but leave it off for as long as you can and see do you see any difference in behaviour. The air build up is stiil the same or worse so cant't blame the mains water/PHE for that.

 

[jim843]

Ok, will leave it off overnight and see what happens. Thanks!

 

[hometech]

Hello,

Around 2 years ago we had a very old, leaky Baxi combi replaced with a newer Baxi.

For background I live in a 3 storey terrace. First floor has 3 rads, second floor has 4 rads and third floor has 2 rads.

We noticed problems with noise and air in the system. One of the rads in the loft made gurgling noises. If the rad was bled, air came out. Also, at this time the pressure gauge was all over the place. Up to 3, back down to 1 and every number in between. The gauge didn’t appear to drop, though.

The installer wasn’t helpful over the phone so I ended up finding a different engineer.

Turns out the installer of the boiler didn’t do a particularly thorough job. He didn’t clean the old system, I found leaks on some of the nuts beneath the boiler, he didn’t fit a soak away outside so water drips out over our path (great in winter when it’s freezing).

He engineer found the expansion vessel was flat. He pumped it up, tightened the pipes, advised on a soak away. He told me to bleed all the rads individually for a few mins, top up the system and add more inhibitor. He also suggested power flushing the system. I did all this and also rented a machine and flushed the system myself.

I did all this but the problems remained. I ended up contacting Baxi who came out and replaced the expansion vessel.

This didn’t solve anything. More gurgling, more air.

We ended up getting the boiler serviced again (this is maybe a year after install) and I mentioned the problems to the engineer. He asked the usual questions (is there inhibitor, have you bled the system, etc) and mentioned we had an old radiator in the bathroom. He thought this might be the source of air.

We were planning on getting the bathroom refitted so I decided to wait and see if that solved any issues.

We got the bathroom refitted. Now, the gurgling and air does not go to the top of the house but is in the towel rail in the bathroom. I can bleed the rad once a day and there’s maybe a second or two of air and then water. The pressure does not drop on the boiler.

I contacted Baxi again who came out and replaced the expansion vessel with a bigger one. The engineer also suggested fitting an automatic bleed valve on the chrome towel rail because in his experience chrome towel rails suck in air. I bought one two valves (one for spare) and fitted it.

I noticed an odd thing while fitting the automatic bleed valve. I turned off the two rad valves, released the pressure. Once the air left the rad I could put my finger in the top of the rad and feel there was no water there at all. I’d expected that the water would be just below the top of the rad?

But you’ve guessed it — still gurgling and air in the system! The automatic bleed valve doesn’t appear to vent automatically, not sure why. Could be faulty. I can swap it over with the spare but haven’t gotten around to it yet.

The only other thing I noticed with the system is that if the system is off in the summer then there is minimal air in the rad. I assume because the pump isn't forcing water around the system?

If you got this far, thanks! I’d love to solve this issue and have a system that works! I’m not opposed to ripping out pipework and starting again (even though I’m nearing the end of a long renovation!). Ideally there are some simpler steps I can take to diagnose?

Any advice?

ask the experts on here to explain hydronic flow under variable speed pumps (of which your combi will most certainly have one if its only a few years old)

 

[jim843]

ask the experts on here to explain hydronic flow under variable speed pumps (of which your combi will most certainly have one if its only a few years old)

i had a quick read. Won’t pretend to understand but do you mean air is a product of this system?

 

[jim843]

Started watching
@John.g HW off for the night. Will check in the morning!

 

[jim843]

@John.g HW off from about 10pm last night to 09:15am this morning.

Heating was just cooling when I checked gauge.

It was at 2.5 at 69 degrees. Over the next few mins the pressure dropped back to normal level at about 47 degrees.

I haven’t bled the towel rail yet.

 

[John.g]

So, does this indicate to you so far, that the behaviour is the same as with the HW enabled, ie that the system will still "never" need top up no matter how much air is vented?. If this is the case, then that would indicate that you are pulling air into the system and not venting residual air. If the PHE was causing the problem then you would expect the overall boiler pressure to gradually decay? now that its (the PHE) out of the picture.

 

[jim843]

So, does this indicate to you so far, that the behaviour is the same as with the HW enabled, ie that the system will still "never" need top up no matter how much air is vented?. If this is the case, then that would indicate that you are pulling air into the system and not venting residual air. If the PHE was causing the problem then you would expect the overall boiler pressure to gradually decay? now that its (the PHE) out of the picture.

Yes, that’s my understanding. I haven’t topped the system up since…I don’t know when!

Is it safe to assume that we’re pulling in air BELOW the towel rail?

I can fairly easily cap off the top floor. And run the system and see if that stops air coming in.

I can cap off the middle floor, just leaving the ground floor, too - but obviously trickier as it’s winter and house will be cold.

Any other suggestions welcome!

 

[John.g]

I honestly don't know or even see how air can be getting in anywhere from outside, gases being generated inside the system would explain it but your hydrogen test was negative.

What about just shutting both isolation valves on that towel rail for a few days and see does air appear somewhere else?.

 

[jim843]

I honestly don't know or even see how air can be getting in anywhere from outside, gases being generated inside the system would explain it but your hydrogen test was negative.

What about just shutting both isolation valves on that towel rail for a few days and see does air appear somewhere else?.

I'll shut the towel rail off later in the week when the kids are away.

I fitted an automatic air vent from Aladdin on the towel rail. The last one didn't seem to work but this one definitely released air when I opened the valves on the towel rail again.

Just a few odd things I noticed when fitting it...

When closing the valves on the towel rail and opening the bleed valve, there was air for a few seconds and then water/air mix for a few seconds.

Hard to see but the water level was about an inch (why have I suddenly gone imperial!) below the top of the towel rail:

About this level:



And this is the muck inside the towel rail:

Is this considered dirty?

 

[John.g]

Rad looks very dirty, so would suggest another flushing out.

 

[jim843]

Rad looks very dirty, so would suggest another flushing out.

Ok. Will get someone in this time.

Could this be the cause of air?