Gas Safe are a joke!!!Fact

[ferret]

This is an update on my original post back in July , any one who followed it will know the full sp , After all the promises and bull**** from Gas safe about inspecting engineers and companies who will not adhere to safe practice and MI,s because they think they don,t really need to . It turns out you you don,t need to if you do social housing work because no body will ever inspect it , after I reported it Gas safe promised they would inspect , well 5 months later and 3 cancelled appointments (from them not the company) later,and not a lot has changed. Is it because they collect big bucks from said Co because they have approx 60 gas operatives or am i being cynical ???

 

[PuraTherm]

Coming from the United States, having been in the plumbing and heating industry for over 14 years and having just recently completing my ACS for domestic gas, I think that this whole premis of self certification is a joke. In under five months (and thousands of pounds) I, once I am Gas Safe registered, can do unsupervised work. For me this is a joke. There is no way you can learn how to be a good gas fitter in five months. I the US it was four years of supervised work before I could legally work on my own. Even after that, any job had to be inspected by city inspectors. Permits had to be applied for before the jobs started and the inspector could drop in any time. There were six inspectors for the City of Seattle. This ment that I had an inspector on site every two weeks. The quality of work I have seen here has been an eye-opener. 80% of the work I have seen would have been rejected by US inspectors and you have far more gas installations. Plumbing here is a different matter altogether. I'll bet that 90% of the plumbers here wouldn't know how to size a system based on fixture units or cross sectional area. The fact that you can go on a two week training course and call yourself a plumber is a joke.
I'm sure that after my rant I will be told to just go back to the US. I will be. There are so many other reasons for me wanting to go back to post on here.
Ferret is right. It shouldn't be called a registration scheme, it should be called a registration SCAM. That is exactly what it is. I have only been here a year and I know that.

 

[moony]

even if they had 6 inspectors in my area ( alot smaller than seatle ) then they still wouldnt be able to cover every job - i come across sub standard work all the time - my duty is to either ar ncs or id it - and then inform the gas supplier if required.

the world is becomming a whole scheme of loopholes and shortcuts - the only way theyd ever stop it is if you could become a lawyer in 6 weeks - the legal system would soon put a haly to that as they make to much money from it!

 

[ferret]

Well our local inspector seems to find time to inspect my brother in law every month or so since he called a him a t**t ! and tries to pull him on anything he can think of non gas related , because he cannot find anything gas related to do him for. Now he gets regular non gas related letters of defects from the "Gas safe inspector" which is nuts

 

[gasmarc]

i think the whole things a joke I tried reporting some firm that were clearly non registered and the reply was we cannot do anything with out a customer making a complaint , beyond belief

 

[Blackcatgas]

Coming from the United States, having been in the plumbing and heating industry for over 14 years and having just recently completing my ACS for domestic gas, I think that this whole premis of self certification is a joke. In under five months (and thousands of pounds) I, once I am Gas Safe registered, can do unsupervised work. For me this is a joke. There is no way you can learn how to be a good gas fitter in five months. I the US it was four years of supervised work before I could legally work on my own. Even after that, any job had to be inspected by city inspectors. Permits had to be applied for before the jobs started and the inspector could drop in any time. There were six inspectors for the City of Seattle. This ment that I had an inspector on site every two weeks. The quality of work I have seen here has been an eye-opener. 80% of the work I have seen would have been rejected by US inspectors and you have far more gas installations. Plumbing here is a different matter altogether. I'll bet that 90% of the plumbers here wouldn't know how to size a system based on fixture units or cross sectional area. The fact that you can go on a two week training course and call yourself a plumber is a joke.
I'm sure that after my rant I will be told to just go back to the US. I will be. There are so many other reasons for me wanting to go back to post on here.
Ferret is right. It shouldn't be called a registration scheme, it should be called a registration SCAM. That is exactly what it is. I have only been here a year and I know that.

I couldnt agree more with you Purathem, the Germans and Dutch also put us to shame. I dont know why you botherd moving here... she must be atractive.

 

[Dave]

Guys.. no swearing please..

 

[PuraTherm]

who swore?

 

[plumbster3456]

yes i agree it is an utter and total joke in this country how someone can become gas safe in 6 weeks fast tracking is beyond me.
I am also puzzled about why you can become a so called plumber in this country in 6 weeks everything is about if you can pay you will get it.
England is worse at least snipef in scotland will make you prove you served your time and no big company will employ you without proof of apprenticeship which is the way it should be.
German workmanship would put us to shame these guys spend a day commissioning a basic domestic system compared to the hour that gets spent rushing through it here everything is about money money money get it in fast and get out to your next job.
I cant really say to much bad about my experience of gas safe as they have only inspected me once since the gas safe thing came into play and the guy was very helpful.
I have mentioned in another thread about should it be law to have to prove you are fully qualified plumber / gas engineer ( full apprenticeship ) to be able to work as either gas or plumber and most agreed this would be a good idea.
But this will never happen as there is too much money at stake for gas safe and these fast track colleges etc.

 

[kirkgas]

how long does it take to learn the basic safety items needed for CCN1? then you have the slight differences for each appliance, it doesnt take 4yrs, ok i agree the best thing for a 16 yr old is a full apprenticeship, but if you have served your time in one field are you honestly saying he/she cannot learn CCN1? it does take a wee while to learn fault finding, but i have been off the tools for yrs now and don't know any of the fault codes for newer boilers, however in the absense of MI i can leave it safe, then when i ask someone the next day "what is L9 on a ??" they laugh and say thats easy you didnt need to AR it for that it is only ????? but as i couldnt confirm the fault i acted safely, so as long as the new entrants act safely and have the right attitude how long do you say they "must" train before getting a gas ticket? i have taught a few people the bpec foundation gas course now and a few of them will go on and shine in the industry because they care, have the right attitude and highly skilled and highly motivated, others will join the ranks of the "most of us" and do a good job, and yes some of them only want to make money, a description of many tradesmen, i remember hqaving a chat with a couple of guys who were in for re-assessment (long time tradesmen) who were moaning about the 6 month course saying it was rubbish and dangerous, when i asked them how they were getting on with their assessments they told me they couldnt finissh in time and had to come back in for another day, all the time moaning about how crap it was and they shouldnt need to prove themselves, they couldn't get through theory and practical for CCN1 only in 2 days, i have had 4 guys on the foundation course who got through it in the 2 days

 

[gasmarc]

the training is total rubbish,I actually met a guy who was a forman for a big firm and he had me worried with his lack of knowledge,not to mention the 2 cowboys that were doing 20 GLSC a day and lastly the bloke who was doing a purge managed to fill the place with gas and the instructor told him to get his coat, I went to a gas leak yesterday and some idiot had left a fitting HAND TIGHT unbeliveable

 

[plumbster3456]

kirkgas you would say that as it is these courses who pay your wages as you are a trainer am i correct? no offence intended but i think this is why you think the way you do.
how you can say someone who has been in the industry for years is less competent than 3 guys on a gas foundation course is totally wrong or if its not wrong then its frightening.

lots of guys who are highly good at there job cant remember every gas regulation or minimum distance from this or that off the top of there head so maybe this is why it went into the third day? did they eventually pass anyway? i think so

and anyway kirk what college are you at?

 

[gasmarc]

well on another note I knew a guy who left the army and paid to go to collage ,he became a foreman for one of the big firms and is now doing his commercial ticket and they are paying for it

 

[metaldust9]

id like to no where you can do your gas in 6 weeks cos its took me over a yr up to now and am just doing my acs now no one wants to help you dont get away with nothing, were ive been there well strict its a minimum 250 days and 60 jobs all signed off and no mistakes ,burner presures,gas rates the lot then a load of questions that were hard that i will never use but have to no ,maybe places do it doggy but thats where gas safe should be checking and its cost me a fortune plus days off you dont get paid for,

 

[gasmarc]

well as you say stuff you will never use again, Which makes you wonder what you are paying for , Regarding GSR checking stuff I would not want to be holding my breath , regarding signing off thats a waste of time along with benchmark so by the time you qualify they will be coming up with a new training scheme

 

[metaldust9]

yep agree also theres new stuff coming up or being brought in in the next few months so ave been told

 

[gasmarc]

whats worrying is the present system is a joke ,so it should be a laugh and a waste of a huge sum of money paid by us no doubt, I wont be doing any paperwork for anybody ever regardless of what the law says, It makes the mind boggle that some people are so dumb and think its good to notify

 

[metaldust9]

according to there figures a part of there contract is engineers satisfation helping them and its not been reached according to hpm this month

also how can ye do 20 glsc in a day plus if the bloke had done t test before he left then he would have spotted it hand tight cos there would have been a drop

 

[GrahamM]

the training is total rubbish,I actually met a guy who was a forman for a big firm and he had me worried with his lack of knowledge,not to mention the 2 cowboys that were doing 20 GLSC a day and lastly the bloke who was doing a purge managed to fill the place with gas and the instructor told him to get his coat, I went to a gas leak yesterday and some idiot had left a fitting HAND TIGHT unbeliveable

Do you know it was a fast tracker that left the leak? At the end of the day, 6 years experience or 6 months experience mistakes happen. We are only human. It's unfortunate that an experienced tradesman could leave something so potential dangerous, but don't be so naive to think it does not happen.

kirkgas you would say that as it is these courses who pay your wages as you are a trainer am i correct? no offence intended but i think this is why you think the way you do.
how you can say someone who has been in the industry for years is less competent than 3 guys on a gas foundation course is totally wrong or if its not wrong then its frightening.

lots of guys who are highly good at there job cant remember every gas regulation or minimum distance from this or that off the top of there head so maybe this is why it went into the third day? did they eventually pass anyway? i think so

and anyway kirk what college are you at?

I agree with kirky to a degree here. I know of a few so called experienced time served plumbers/engineers that would not get through my door to replace a tap washer never mind service my boiler and on the other hand there are a few fast tracker with no plumbing experience let alone gas, that would put them to shame.

In my experience a few of the experienced lads have become more complacent and cut a few corners along the way as they have been getting away with it. 15 min annual services and the like. Not much more on a BBU.

You cannot say there are not experienced (time served) cowboys out there!

 

[gasmarc]

you have hit the nail on the head there Graham, now an interesting point would be to see what is the recommended time required to service a BBU and the fire, like in some of the haynes manuals , somehow I could not see that taking off as BG engineers would only be doing 6/7 jobs a day lol

 

[GrahamM]

Had the BBU service time discussion on here a few times already. I used to think I was doing a good job in 50 mins or so then I was shown how a thorough clean was done. I maintain now any less than 60 mins is cutting corners.

 

[ferret]

your right there graham , 60 mins minimum 90 sometimes on say a capricorn

 

[oldplumber]

Ref notifications, they arent a waste of time if you charge for doing them, say £30 a go to cover your time on the pc, and customers are happy that they have the coorrect paper work if they want to sell and move on. The fact we have gas safe is something as without it wed be in one hell of a mess, although the system needs improving to stop those with say pipe work on their tickt contiinuing to work on boilers etc. But with the no of explosions recently Id expect a tightening up of the whole system in the future, nothing like a few deaths to get the government into gear, sad but true

 

[PuraTherm]

I had to obtain 4,000 documented working hours for my domestic license and another 2,000 documented work hours for my commercial license. This did include my plumbing as well. As I understand it has gone up to 6,000 and 8,000. Our plumbing regulations book called the Uniform Plumbing Code is about 250 pages of legislation. That dosen't include our mechanical code. These are the International Mechanical Code and Fuel Gases.

 

[oldplumber]

british standards amount to a lot more than 250 pages, along with all the other regs we are meant to adhere to, each to their own is my opinion,if you dont like uk work routines then you have the option to leave, but lets not compare the USA to the UK , its hard enough to adhere to the uk rules without someone introducing stuff from where they came from. From my experience in the real world when I was involved with the USA/UK, the yanks seemed to be cocking it up regularly by killing and wounding many a friendly ally rather than the ones they were supposed to and they still are.

 

[PuraTherm]

Sounds like I touched a sore nerve there oldplumber. The last thing I want to do is get involved in an international incident. Let's just keep to the trades and not go into politics. Let's face it, neither of our countries innocent.

 

[oldplumber]

point Im trying to make is you cant compare how different countries carry out there routines, although Im bound to say that the yanks seem to have much better building regs standards of inspection than us, but we arent in the us so theres no point in wishing really.

 

[PuraTherm]

You are absolutely right, attempting to compare legislation from other countries is pointless. The building codes are different. The problem is enforcement of those existing codes. It serves no purpose to have stringent legislation if there is not the manpower to enforce those laws. Good money is paid to Gas Safe by thousands of installers every year and we still get the response of "not enough inspectors to go around". Too many of us have seen shoddy work by "competent" installers. We are told that we are held to a higher standard but that standard can be purchased if we choose to throw money into a fast track training facility. This is where the problem lies. I know I will get flack for this but we need more frequency on inspections not more legislation .

 

[oldplumber]

perfectly true, pura

 

[kirkgas]

the training is total rubbish,I actually met a guy who was a forman for a big firm and he had me worried with his lack of knowledge,not to mention the 2 cowboys that were doing 20 GLSC a day and lastly the bloke who was doing a purge managed to fill the place with gas and the instructor told him to get his coat, I went to a gas leak yesterday and some idiot had left a fitting HAND TIGHT unbeliveable

was it a meter nut by any chance? there is a safety update on this saying tightened nuts are found to be hand tight due to the washer "relaxing"

 

[kirkgas]

kirkgas you would say that as it is these courses who pay your wages as you are a trainer am i correct? no offence intended but i think this is why you think the way you do.
how you can say someone who has been in the industry for years is less competent than 3 guys on a gas foundation course is totally wrong or if its not wrong then its frightening.

lots of guys who are highly good at there job cant remember every gas regulation or minimum distance from this or that off the top of there head so maybe this is why it went into the third day? did they eventually pass anyway? i think so

and anyway kirk what college are you at?

yes i work in a training centre, but have said for many years that new entrants can join gas, when i did my ACOPS it was done as a group exercise, it isnt hard to learn is my point, do you think it is difficult to learn gas safety? i did say it is time consuming to learn fault finding, but as long as the basics are covered safely what is the problem with them joining the gas industry, there are many many of us who are not time served gas engineers but manage very well, so why cant an engineer, electronics person etc etc learn to do a TT and purge, it is due to working in assessing for the last 4yrs or so that allow me to comment on the "experts" that have been in the industry for many many yrs and are scary, yes they get through eventually, and it isnt all about pipe clip distances etc, there are tons of guys who cannot purge or gas rate an appliance without training, this is totally wrong for someone who is suypposodly doing a good install every day, so what is their excuse?
gas is easy so why cant other trades learn it?
plumbster3456 what is your trade background/experience in gas

 

[chauffagist]

very interesting article puratherm, consider this also, what other proffesion has their qualification taken away from them and told it is now null and void? yes I refer to city and guilds gas service engineer certification. 3 years apprentiship with British Gas dosn't count for anything in the eyes of corgi now Gas Safe.Can you imagine any other proffesionals working in the public and private sector, saftey being parramount, being told efectivly that their 3 years plus successfull examination dosnt meen anything anymore!
I agree with your view to become a gas fitter after 5 months is crazy, I have 25 years in the industry but still look back and see just how valuable the apprentiship and training were.Funny thing is when presenting my papers here in France to the Chambre de metier (Bureau for all Artisans), the Guy listed me as an engineer de gaz I also had my corgi certification which added some confusion, I explained as best I could, however his response was " you have made an apprentiship you have the paper (city and guilds)therfore you are engineer de gaz c'est sa"
Any one else realised part p electrics you are qualified if you have city an guilds gas service engineer cert?

 

[mrlennie]

very interesting article puratherm, consider this also, what other proffesion has their qualification taken away from them and told it is now null and void? yes I refer to city and guilds gas service engineer certification. 3 years apprentiship with British Gas dosn't count for anything in the eyes of corgi now Gas Safe.Can you imagine any other proffesionals working in the public and private sector, saftey being parramount, being told efectivly that their 3 years plus successfull examination dosnt meen anything anymore!
I agree with your view to become a gas fitter after 5 months is crazy, I have 25 years in the industry but still look back and see just how valuable the apprentiship and training were.Funny thing is when presenting my papers here in France to the Chambre de metier (Bureau for all Artisans), the Guy listed me as an engineer de gaz I also had my corgi certification which added some confusion, I explained as best I could, however his response was " you have made an apprentiship you have the paper (city and guilds)therfore you are engineer de gaz c'est sa"
Any one else realised part p electrics you are qualified if you have city an guilds gas service engineer cert?

Good point the french dude makes.

1. train as a gas engineer
2. pass gas exams
3. clear to work on gas - Nope!
4. Pay gas safe
5. Now your clear

 

[Dannypipe]

Any one else realised part p electrics you are qualified if you have city an guilds gas service engineer cert?

You're saying we can apply to any of the electrical registration bodies, and become registered Part P competant for electrics if we're a qualified gas installer?

 

[shorticus]

whats worrying is the present system is a joke ,so it should be a laugh and a waste of a huge sum of money paid by us no doubt, I wont be doing any paperwork for anybody ever regardless of what the law says, It makes the mind boggle that some people are so dumb and think its good to notify

I'm genuinely interested in your opinion on this Gasmarc, why do you think it's a poor choice to notify?
Thanks in advance.