Freezing 3yr old son's bedroom HELP!

[ShaunCorbs]

if you can pass the initiation test and pay the fee im sure crop will give your a brand

 

[rpm]

if you can pass the initiation test and pay the fee im sure crop will give your a brand

What like a sheep brand you mean? Er, no thanks I`ll pass on that !!!!

I am an engineer you know, got papers to prove it and my dad showed me the difference between an adjustable, open ended and ring spanner when I was 10 or 11 and he showed me the correct way of winding ptfe tape around a barrel nipple so do I qualify now ?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What like a sheep brand you mean? Er, no thanks I`ll pass on that !!!!

I am an engineer you know, got papers to prove it and my dad showed me the difference between an adjustable, open ended and ring spanner when I was 10 or 11 and he showed me the correct way of winding ptfe tape around a barrel nipple so do I qualify now ?

its a must it doesnt hurt that much and maybe but the donation will have to be bigger

 

[doitmyself]

I think I will wait until the OP gets his problem solved before I comment further.

 

[PriestyUK]

Best get down Tesco's and get yourself half a dozen eggs and a hat to eat

 

[Best]

I think I will wait until the OP gets his problem solved before I comment further.

I think if the OP hasn't got heat into the bedroom by now, then his 3 year old son must have frozen to death.

 

[smglasgow]

Update:

I have a HIVE thermostat, so turned the heating on from work at 4pm. Got home about 6pm, problem rads still showing top middle tems of 48 lounge and 53 bedroom respectively. Inlet pipe red hot (well 65 anyway with flow from boiler showing 70 using IR thermometer so prob slightly higher in real life). Hot rad close to boiler showing 65 degrees and rest "felt" good a hot. So no miracles occuring over night obvioulsy.

By the time kids were fed and watered it was 6:45 and so quickly decided to try the HIT IT & WAGGLE IT SOLUTI0NS ..............

1. TAPPED PIN HEAD WITH HAMMER 3 TIMES;
2. Tapped side of valve a couple of times;
3. grabbed pin with needle nose pliers and pushed up then pulled down on ping and, finally
4. gave the pin a waggle side to side 12-6 then 3 - 9 oclock before pressing up/down again;

For good measure also tapped lockshield valves and screwed closed, fully opened again........

No IMMEDIATE rocketing of system temperature, damn it (I thought -by now lounge up to 50 and bedroom up to 55 as 45 min has elaspsed with heating on full blast as set room thermostat to 25 at 4pm). Went and bathed kids, 20-min later front room and bedroom pretty much the same +couple of degrees more if that. Remembered over the weekend father in law suggested I set heating pump to no2 speed. Thought stuff it, give the system a blast and so quickly turned pump back to no3 (max speed) - which is actually what Vokera technical help guy told me to set the pump at today, without justifying his statement, when I explained the hassle I was having. Net result, within 10-min bedroom rad up to 60-degrees and front room up to 55degrees.

Has this solved it? - Not convinced to be honest and will need to wait until tomorrow AM to see as remember the rads will eventually warm up if you leave the heating on long enough (like 4 hours) and by this time the system had been blasting on full heat for 3 1/2 hours!

So sorry, but no conclusive proof of system solution (yet). One downside is at Pump setting 3 I now have 10-degree temp difference at boiler between flow and return. Not surpirsing as 8 of the downstairs rads are throttled right down to try and push heat to the rads at end of line. One thing I am certain of is turning the pump to #3 sped up the rate of heating of the problem rads (duh).

Once I solve the problem rads slow heating rate and get them to max temp same as the rest, (60-degrees within 30-min is my target for "success" based on his brothers bedroom radiator performing like this) I will balance the system again to try and get 20-degree temp drop at the boiler (55 return on 75 flow temp) as apparently this increases chances of condensing function working......

Will update tomorrow when Ive seen performance from a cold start.

 

[smglasgow]

p.s. system has been on pump setting 3 for the last 18-m (when i bought the house) and only changes to speed 2 at the weekend after father in law was round, so prior to tonight the system still failed to heat up the problem rads when pump was on 3. I therfore wonder if the valve tapping has helped................tomorrow AM will tell.

Kid not frozen (yet) and sound asleep in cosy bedroom thanks to the last 4 hrs of heating!!

 

[smglasgow]

p.p.s - I see there was some "friction" in the forum between members. All I will say is I appreciate everyone's feedback and thank you all for taking time to try and help out, be that from the position of practicing "certified" engineer or experienced homeowner who has faced similar issues.

 

[Leo21]

Just a few quick questions, I haven't read the the full op. So if you've answered this already, sorry.

Has it ever worked, does it have a cylinder on it? Does the system perform better with the hot water demand satisfied or even off?
Was the system designed and fitted all at the same time? Or added on to with an extension or
Like?
Are you sure the nest is calling for heat all the time? And are there zone valves? All these will have a factor on you system.

 

[SimonG]

Valves red hot. Radiators cool. Trv stuck. Hit it harder. You will see immediate result, unless not hitting it hard enough. Hit it harder.

 

[smglasgow]

Never worked in my view. Home purchased after previous owner renovated from 2 bed to 4 bed bungalo (extended in every direction you can think of). So dont know if all rads were added to the system when the boiler was installed (2010) according to home report or after final building works complete in 2012. I suspect rads were added, but upstairs they all have teh same PVC pipework (15mm diameter) and are identical rads, so might all have been done at the same time. Just dont know.

35kw vokera compact he Comi boiler, so no cylinder.........(sorry not really sure what you are asking)

not looked at performance when hot water demand is ON, as every test I perform I make sure no one turns on the hot water or goes for bath/shower to max heat into t he rads

No zone valves in the system and certain the HIVE system is calling for heat as thermostat set well above room temps in my tests (as I type I wonder if the boiler is reaching the set water temp (70 odd degrees) and cutting out - but again, doesnt explain why his brothers radiator 8ft away in another bedroom shoots up to 65 degrees in no time yet problem rad is still 50 degrees after a couple of hours normally - so I do think the system is calling for heat constantly

 

[Best]

Valves red hot. Radiators cool. Trv stuck. Hit it harder. You will see immediate result, unless not hitting it hard enough. Hit it harder.

Exactly! Nearly always that's all it is. I have to whack them TRV pins hard sometimes.
And it can be inside the body of the TRV and the only way to fix it properly is replace the TRV.
I know it can also be the internal 'pin' seized, which ain't fixable.
Balancing is possible to be the main issue if problem ALWAYS was there, but not otherwise.

 

[SimonG]

Yep. Beat the snot out of it till it works as a makeshift. Dump pressure snatch two new trv's and jobs sorted. 5 pages later.

 

[Leo21]

If it's a combi, the pump should be on 3. Replace the trv,s and go from there.

 

[smglasgow]

p.s only addressing this now as always thought the insulation in the boys room was the issue and so improved that first, which I did last summer and before having a IR thermometer. Brothers room is toasty warm now, but 3yr olds is freezing in morning. Homed in on rad issue afetr buying an IR thermometer to directly compare two rads, and was shocked at how much difference between the two with 8ft separation (10+ degrees typically)

 

[Best]

No zone valves in the system and certain the HIVE system is calling for heat as thermostat set well above room temps in my tests (as I type I wonder if the boiler is reaching the set water temp (70 odd degrees) and cutting out - but again, doesnt explain why his brothers radiator 8ft away in another bedroom shoots up to 65 degrees in no time yet problem rad is still 50 degrees after a couple of hours normally - so I do think the system is calling for heat constantly

Either get the TRV pin thumped with a hammer or whole valve replaced.
By all means fire ahead with a basic balancing of system, - try turning the lockshield valves nearly off on nearby rads that are heating very fast.
Ignore all the technical talk. You are trying to get a radiator improved that has never worked fully. That should have been narrowed down to what is likely wrong, or fixed - a couple of days ago.

 

[smglasgow]

Can I just ask one more favour - Im seeing 1.25 bar pressure rise from cold to hot and have a cold pressure of 1bar, hot goes just over 2bar after 3 1/2 hours tonight. Does this indicate I should check/re-pressurise the expansion vessel or is +1bar from heating acceptable? The vokera 35h EV should be at 1bar.

If I test the EV, I understand the system should be drained of water (so diaphragm has air on both sides) is this correct?

Just trying to get as many jobs done at one time if the system does need draining of all water (not sure if it does for these two jobs -TRV replacement and EV checking).

 

[Best]

You are supposed to get the expansion vessel air charge checked minimum once a year when boiler is serviced.
Remember you can't open the gas boiler or work on it unless you are gas qualified.
Separate expansion vessel is a different story.

 

[Leo21]

Can I just ask one more favour - Im seeing 1.25 bar pressure rise from cold to hot and have a cold pressure of 1bar, hot goes just over 2bar after 3 1/2 hours tonight. Does this indicate I should check/re-pressurise the expansion vessel or is +1bar from heating acceptable? The vokera 35h EV should be at 1bar.

If I test the EV, I understand the system should be drained of water (so diaphragm has air on both sides) is this correct?

Just trying to get as many jobs done at one time if the system does need draining of all water (not sure if it does for these two jobs -TRV replacement and EV checking).

If the case has to come off you can't do that without being gsr.

 

[SimonG]

You are supposed to get the expansion vessel air charge checked minimum once a year when boiler is serviced.
Remember you can't open the gas boiler or work on it unless you are gas qualified.
Separate expansion vessel is a different story.

The gas guys are lazy best its only us oilies that check the ev on a service

 

[Best]

The gas guys are lazy best its only us oilies that check the ev on a service

Tell me about it! :smile: I am overworked sometimes on oil. I wish all I had to do is service or replace them wee easy gas boilers.

 

[Leo21]

Tell me about it! :smile: I am overworked sometimes on oil. I wish all I had to do is service or replace them wee easy gas boilers.

The gas stuff may a bit technical.:Angel_anim:

 

[Best]

The gas stuff may a bit technical.:Angel_anim:

I must admit the gas stuff must be very technical. That's probably why I have to tell people where their gas engineers failed. :smile:
That Goose bloke is a gas engineer and seems to be lost in the complexity of basic oil stuff. :grin:

 

[lame plumber]

The gas stuff may a bit technical.:Angel_anim:

I would love to see you sorting an oil twin vapour burner rayburn nouvelle in less than 3 hours on a standard service, or 3 days if you've not got a manual

 

[Leo21]

I would love to see you sorting an oil twin vapour burner rayburn nouvelle in less than 3 hours on a standard service, or 3 days if you've not got a manual

I've had a look on other forums, and it's quite simple.

 

[lame plumber]

I've had a look on other forums, and it's quite simple.

great, next time I am asked I will give them your number, there aren't that many out there (Aga trained or not ) that will go near them the powermax of range cookers, but a lot lot worse..................

 

[newcastle phill]

Oil is for kids. Afaiac if you can do a 12000 service on ya corsa you can work on oil.

Heating runs on mobil 1 right ???

 

[smglasgow]

7am update, heating on for 1hr, 1-degree outside..............no improvement. rads 65-degree throughout house, problem 2 still at 50. Going to kick out theem with a mallet when I get back from work tonight

 

[smglasgow]

7:30am - 52 lounge, 55 bedrom, coming up but slowly as other rads in system start shutting down on thier TRVs as rooms reach temps...........downside of all this is I now have a boiler pressure of 2.7bar!!!!!!!!!1 up from 1bar cold. Clearly increasing pump speed to 3 with current lockshiled settings (most are throttles way down) is raising boiler pressure.......or coincidental problem with EV pressure (which you say I cannot touch evn thought shraeder valve can be seen at back / top of boiler).

Not sure how fast the boiler pressure came up this AM, will get wive to turn on heating from cold this afternoon and watch gauge for 10-min to see if it shoots up (indicating EV issues) or rises slowly over an hour, indicating lockshileds too far shut on too many rads issue

Next step - open lockshileds downstairs more to reduce system resistance and max boiler pressure on pump 3 setting, or just call out an engineer (I know!)

 

[Leo21]

The increase in pressure is not related to balancing system. Opening rads won't cure it!

 

[Dotty]

smglasgow.

Please be aware of our swearing policy on this forum.

This is a friendly reminder of that policy.

Don't swear!

 

[Leo21]

Actually I said, if the case has to come off the boiler you can't do it.

 

[rpm]

Going to kick out theem with a mallet when I get back from work tonight

Stand to be corrected here but, using a rubber or even a hide mallet wont have the effect of "Shocking" the pin free, needs to be something metallic.

 

[Leo21]

Stand to be corrected here but, using a rubber or even a hide mallet wont have the effect of "Shocking" the pin free, needs to be something metallic.

I use a. Icily waited adjustable, a short sharp tap.

 

[rpm]

I use a. Icily waited adjustable, a short sharp tap.

A small hammer will do if no adjustable spanner is available. lol

 

[smglasgow]

well. after a couple of days tapping the TRV in 3yr olds room, finally bot the bullet and replaced the TRV body completely with new unit. Pump speed 3. with the result .....................NO CHANGE! 55degree radiator temp at top compared with brother room at 65 degrees. Radiator no cold zones and 5 degree difference top to bottom, so wonder if the lockshield is restricted with gunk even thought the head is fully unscrewed. Back to drawing board for now I guess. Current thinking:

- replace loockshield;

if still restricted flow:

- flush radiator from hose - even thought convinced clean!

if still restricted flow:

- investigate blockage in pipework between brothers radiator and 3rd olds (all of 8 ft!)

if still restricted:

- replace pump.


if still restricted:

MOVE HOME!!!!!!!

Glad I dont do this for a living, like forensic science this lot.

 

[rpm]

investigate blockage in pipework between brothers radiator and 3rd olds (all of 8 ft!)

10ft length of cable ? Sort of 5mm diameter cable used to hang net curtains and maybe a wet vac?

 

[smglasgow]

brainwave.........perhaps, just seen brothers hot rad - 65 top, 67inlet, 55 outlet (ideal 12 degrees temp drop) with lockshield at 2 turns from open. Problem rad is wide open on lockshield with inlet of 63 and outlet of 58 (5 degree drop) and top of rad at 58. Surley if I throttle down lockshield on this rad it will effectively reduce the speed with which water flows through the rad and therefore heat it up (paradoxically as I always thought the last in the line needed to be fully open)>

wrong time to test this as system now up to temp, but will throttle down by 50% and see how it looks tomorrow AM

 

[jonnyswamp]

Remove affected rad and fit length of copper between valves, see what temp you get on the pipe
If flow pipe, temp copper pipe and return all get to same hot temp, then rad is the problem
If no better, points to a restriction in flow/return pipe

 

[Leo21]

Remove affected rad and fit length of copper between valves, see what temp you get on the pipe
If flow pipe, temp copper pipe and return all get to same hot temp, then rad is the problem
If no better, points to a restriction in flow/return pipe

What he said.

 

[Best]

Remove affected rad and fit length of copper between valves, see what temp you get on the pipe
If flow pipe, temp copper pipe and return all get to same hot temp, then rad is the problem
If no better, points to a restriction in flow/return pipe

That only proves a rad is faulty if there had been no heat at valves or rad previously.
If the flow pipe to rad valve had been always roasting, then by doing your method all you are doing is extending the pipe without the rad being there to absorb the heat. So your temporary pipe will heat, but will prove nothing if there is a partial blockage in the flow or return pipes

 

[REDSAW]

lockshield open 1/2 turn will do!
i will revert back to my first post geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[jonnyswamp]

That only proves a rad is faulty if there had been no heat at valves or rad previously.
If the flow pipe to rad valve had been always roasting, then by doing your method all you are doing is extending the pipe without the rad being there to absorb the heat. So your temporary pipe will heat, but will prove nothing if there is a partial blockage in the flow or return pipes

Didn't realise the flow had plenty of heat or that the lockshield was fully open
I will write 100 lines
"I must read every post, before replying"
I was under the impression that rad wasn't getting hot quick enough, so suggested the link pipe to see if heat got there quicker

 

[Best]

Didn't realise the flow had plenty of heat or that the lockshield was fully open
I will write 100 lines
"I must read every post, before replying"
I was under the impression that rad wasn't getting hot quick enough, so suggested the link pipe to see if heat got there quicker

I am not sure myself, tbh. At 7 pages of posts and still going, I think it is hard reading. :smile:

 

[Leo21]

It can still be a partially blocked pipe with a red hot flow.

 

[Best]

It can still be a partially blocked pipe with a red hot flow.

Yes, only needs little more than a pin hole in a blockage letting hot water pass through a pipe

 

[smglasgow]

took a break from this problem as a- we had a temp swing of +15 degree here in Glasgow in the last week and so not so urgent as before and b- head was spinning fault finding. Consensus appeared to be that there was a blockage in the return leg from 3yr olds radiator. Whilst I have yet to investigate this further I would like to suggest an alternative cause of the poor heating on 3yrs olds rad as keep in mind the downstairs lounge performs just as bad as this upstairs radiator. To recap:

- 3yrd olds upstairs rad barely 55 degrees at top of rad after 2 hrs.
- brothers bedroom (8ft away) rad is 65 degrees in 30-min;
- all other (4 upstairs) rads 65degrees no problems;
- lounge rad same performance as 3 yr olds room - 55 max after 2 hours;
- hallway rad slightly better (warmer I mean but only high 50's) - hallway rad is on way back to boiler now;
- next rad in the line is 65degrees (as are remaining 8 downstairs rads on the way to the boiler)


Surely from the above it suggests the issue is with the pumping power of the grunfos UPS 15-60 pump? I have it set to speed 3 and no odd noises, appears to run fine and have confirmed no air in the pump by loosening the bleed screw.

Q - how do you KNOW if a pump is under-performing (ive read about trying to stop the impeller with a screwdriver, but that sounds a bit vague and what sort of force would you need to apply?

- The pump does get hot to touch but not red hot, its circulating 75degree hot water afterall so should never be lukewarm to the touch correct?

Q - if i replace the pump, would you suggest a fully system replacement or just head and would the new grunfos UPS2 be a good upgrade given the VOkera compact HE 35 is 5+ years old.

Thanks again for your comments and patience with my daft Qs

 

[gmartine]

After seven pages a lack of response probably indicates you have all the answers you're going to get so either take it or just wait for the next really cold spell before you panick again.

From memory you should completely replace the TRV's of the malfunctioning rads, ensure the rads (designer) have been fitted the right way around and finally if the system is clean have the pump replaced or you could call in a GS engineer which is what you should've done in the first place.

 

[smglasgow]

Thought I would provide an update on this one, as only fair given all the advise given to date. Currently running system with x400 sentinel in it before giving it a manual flush using mains pressure in a couple of weeks time.

What we found to date - 2 problem rads (slow to heat and not heating fully) off the wall and flushed outside, some muck but not excessive. £50 spent on new TRVs and lockshields on these rads and others, all to no avail. Flow and return both confirmed as not blocked and decent flow at rad (by removing rad and opening valve on the pipe tails). Rads confirmed as b-directional by manufacturer however interestingly swapping the TRV to be on the OUTLET of my son's rad did add 5-degrees to the rad temp (when rad was off I opened TRV and lockshield to see flowrate and was amazed at how much more flow through lockshield c.f TRV - originally on the oulet leg - gave). Thought, swapping them might be worth while and so it proved (gained 5-degrees) and of course checked the TRVs bi direction setting was set as outlet now.

I then re-balanced system with rads next to bioler closed even further from 1/2 - 1 turno open originally to 1/4 to 1/2 turn open now (tiny amount when you look inside one of the lockshields I replaced, but amazingly the rads still heated up quickly). These LOCKSHIELDS are nearly 5 turns to fully open! This also improved temps slightly. Slight worried the small aperture settings will furr up with gunk and so thinking about installing a magnaclean in due course or re-balancing with the pump speed at 2 to get increased aperture settings on the lockshields. Any thoughts?

Currently runnign the x400 more as precaution given 5 years old and only bought home 18m ago, but hopefully this plus a re-balancing of the system will address the issue (FOR MY SON AT LEAST). His rad is the last in the line upstairs. Unfortunately the front room rad (last in the line downstairs is still not great). Had reason to go under the floor for the 1st time since buying the home at the weekend and was surpirsed to see the downstairs rads are fed off a 22 manifold and all rund 10mm microbore!!!! U/stairs is all 15mm PVC.

All downstairs rads are fine except the front room, which is some 6m from the manifold on 10mmm microbore. The manifold feeding this rad is a JG Speedfit Inline Manifold 4 Port unit.

My Q is, would a 12 m loop, 6m there and back feeding a 1kw rad be OK on 10-mm microbore or shoudl I consider upgrading this pipe to 15mm to help get increased flow to this rad? The issue of getting heat to the rad has never been there - always high 60-s at inlet, just no flow through the rad so huge temp drop and little heat.

Before anyone says it, I know I could have got a GS engineer to look at this weeks ago, but this is now a point ot principal for me that I, with your help, will fix this!

Thanks as always for the feedback.