Electric heat only boiler installation advice for a charity please

[Mrflibble]

Hello, would appreciate any advice please.

I assist a charity which is taking on a building which has stood empty for some years.
It will be used for archival storage and office/exhibit area.
Existing heating was blown air via a large commercial grade HVAC unit utilising a pressurejet oil burner. Long disused, and completely unsafe and unserviceable.
No mains gas available.

We intend to fit a heat only electric boiler system with rads via plastic pipe work. Most likely Potterton 12KW.

Electrical connection to be completed/signed off by competent person.

Can anyone offer any advice please? I’ve been repairing plumbing systems for many years but am not a heating engineer, and this sort of system is unfamiliar.

Many thanks.

 

[SJB060685]

I can't comment on electric boilers simply because I have no experience with them but what makes you think your old oil boiler is unsafe and unserviceable?

 

[gmartine]

Heating electrically is always going to be expensive, do the charity own the building?

An LPG boiler is an option but you'd need someone to change the bottles over every now and then or remember to have a larger tank refilled.

 

[bacon_sandwich]

Struggling to get my head around a 12KW wet boiler replacing a "large oil fired warm air heater"

In term of price per KW, electricity is approx 5 times more expensive than NG and 2.5 - 3 times that of oil and LPG.

If the electric boiler is sufficient than an LPG fed boiler would neatly offer an alternative.

Dont right off the warm air heater until an expert has had a look. I have converted from oil to NG and oil to LPG and depending on the type and age, can be done easier than you may think. Manufacturer support would be needed for a compatible LPG burner, along with any other internal components of the combustion chamber but many of the warm air units can take LPG, NG and Oil with some modifications. Or get it fixed... - Hope this helps,

 

[SJB060685]

I agree with bacon sandwich and gmartine. Electricity is efficient but also the most expensive. The reason I ask why you think your old boiler is past it's time is because a good engineer, be it oil, gas etc can revive most systems and keep them going. If your old oil boiler has been sitting unused for some time then check pump to start, check bearings, fit new nozzle, hoses and filters etc and she'll probably roar away. Check the rest of the system over as well. I personally don't have much experience with direct or indirect warm air oil boilers but I'm sure theres still something to be had yet.

 

[SimonG]

A good engineer likes a challenge. Depends on the condition of the heat exchanger.

Worth a look first though.

 

[Mrflibble]

I agree with bacon sandwich and gmartine. Electricity is efficient but also the most expensive. The reason I ask why you think your old boiler is past it's time is because a good engineer, be it oil, gas etc can revive most systems and keep them going. If your old oil boiler has been sitting unused for some time then check pump to start, check bearings, fit new nozzle, hoses and filters etc and she'll probably roar away. Check the rest of the system over as well. I personally don't have much experience with direct or indirect warm air oil boilers but I'm sure theres still something to be had yet.

Thank you yes, if It were an oil boiler with an above ground tank we would consider recommission.
But as stated it’s an oil fired heating and ventilation unit, with heat tubes running through. The pressure jet burner flames heat these tubes and combustion gases vent through a flue. The heat tubes are heavily corroded and the flue falling apart. Parts of the ventilation ducting are missing. And the underground tanks are far too neglected and damaged to ever consider using again. And the lift pump is missing.
Also our insurance most likely won’t cover such a system.
All things considered I believe my assessment of the current systems obsolescence is sound.
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I also need to add that at this point in time, our electrical supply is unmetered.

 

[SimonG]

What amperage is your supply.

 

[Mrflibble]

What amperage is your supply.

Electrician assures me that it will be sufficient.
I understand the boiler supply will need to be rated at a maximum of 63 amps

 

[centralheatking]

I consider this is a very specialist area, if I was yourself I would consult with
1. Your local library / museum
2. If the collection is significant consult with central gov
To establish the correct criteria .
You are entering a very specialist area inc HVAC ..humidity it rolls on
I have contacts if you want ....centralheatking

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What’s the use of the building ?

 

[quality]

If it is only for heating I would look at air conditioning

 

[Murdoch]

I also need to add that at this point in time, our electrical supply is unmetered.

How come? ..

EDIT: Forum gremlin - I did quote the OP's post then edited it!

 

[SJB060685]

Something is wrong mate. OP said that not me lol

 

[ShaunCorbs]

How come? ..

jumper cables

Prob still haven’t taken a base reading since it was empty so they think it’s free

 

[Murdoch]

Something is wrong mate. OP said that not me lol

Odd that! .

 

[bacon_sandwich]

Not sure how to offer advice as its too vague. Suggest download the MIs of the boiler and ask specific questions.
cheers

 

[centralheatking]

Lets wait and see its a nutty problem but if the Op does not engage that will be all our loss
chking

 

[Mrflibble]

Having presented the facts, I honestly wasn’t expecting to be subject to so much second guessing and baseless assumption?

Is it not possible to advise us on the facts presented instead of overanalysing the situation?

If I post some images of the existing plant room, would that help to establish the basic facts?

What do you want from us? I’m sorry if I’ve upset you all in some way...

Edit: Is it now possible to be taken off the mod queue please?

 

[Murdoch]

Having presented the facts, I honestly wasn’t expecting to be subject to so much second guessing and baseless assumption?

Is it not possible to advise us on the facts presented instead of overanalysing the situation?

If I post some images of the existing plant room, would that help to establish the basic facts?

What do you want from us? I’m sorry if I’ve upset you all in some way...

Edit: Is it now possible to be taken off the mod queue please?

So why "I also need to add that at this point in time, our electrical supply is unmetered "

Why is it unmetered?

And I'm always suspicious of a member who conceals their details ..........

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I’m sorry but I don’t know what your question is ?

you want help designing the system??

 

[Mrflibble]

So why "I also need to add that at this point in time, our electrical supply is unmetered "

Why is it unmetered?

Because at this time the landlord has not installed a meter.

Charities are often treated very differently to companies. However the situation is rather more complicated than that, I can’t go into details as it’s commercially sensitive.
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I’m sorry but I don’t know what your question is ?

you want help designing the system??

If you can assist with that it would be very much appreciated.

I’m not sure what it I should I’m guilty of concealing. Would you like to speak to a director of the charity on the telephone? Or have an official letter? Is there any reason that I need to provide details on a public forum?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Any rooms or just one big space ?

/ could you draw a plan ?

 

[Mrflibble]

Any rooms or just one big space ?

/ could you draw a plan ?

Attached. Thank you.

Room contents are purely for planning purposes and may not reflect reality.
Plant room is in the centre.

 

[SJB060685]

You've come on a public forum and asked advise, you've been given that advise by people from all areas, be it oil like myself and a few others, to mains gas, lpg and electrics. Of course you're going to be given plenty of options because like I said this forum is full with specialist in different areas.
I'm not being nasty in anyway, I'm just saying people gave their opinion based on what you asked.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Estimated 24kw heat loss going off your room sizes

 

[Mrflibble]

You've come on a public forum and asked advise, you've been given that advise by people from all areas, be it oil like myself and a few others, to mains gas, lpg and electrics. Of course you're going to be given plenty of options because like I said this forum is full with specialist in different areas.
I'm not being nasty in anyway, I'm just saying people gave their opinion based on what you asked.

I understand that, and I appreciate it. But you must also understand that you are not dealing with a moron DIY enthusiast here.
In real life I refurbish properties, commission trades etc. and therefore I do have an idea of what I’m talking about.
I look at everything from all angles, and I’ve already had to discount the use of the oil system after considering all alternatives.
We’ve already taken into account the fact that if in future the landlord decides to meter our electricity supply we may at that point have to then make a decision to change the electric boiler to LPG - in which case the plumbing will already be installed - we may even be given an LPG boiler in a few months. But in the meantime we need a means of providing heating.
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Estimated 24kw heat loss going off your room sizes

Thank you, based on what input? We’re aiming for proving a basic level of minimal background heat throughout most of the building.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I understand that, and I appreciate it. But you must also understand that you are not dealing with a moron DIY enthusiast here.
In real life I refurbish properties, commission trades etc. and therefore I do have an idea of what I’m talking about.
I look at everything from all angles, and I’ve already had to discount the use of the oil system after considering all alternatives.
We’ve already taken into account the fact that if in future the landlord decides to meter our electricity supply we may at that point have to then make a decision to change the electric boiler to LPG - in which case the plumbing will already be installed - we may even be given an LPG boiler in a few months. But in the meantime we need a means of providing heating.
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Thank you, based on what input? We’re aiming for proving a basic level of minimal background heat throughout most of the building.

heatloss calc of the building

34m long by 8m wide by 4m tall
50mm insulated roof
Concrete floor
Wall block and brick

at 18dc when outside is -10

 

[Mrflibble]

heatloss calc of the building

34m long by 8m wide by 4m tall
50mm insulated roof
Concrete floor
Wall block and brick

at 18dc when outside is -10

So will a 12KW boiler be sufficient?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

So will a 12KW boiler be sufficient?

no would need two at the min
so min 100 amps just for them

 

[SimonG]

Mr fibble, to be honest, if you new what you were doing you wouldn't be on here.

People trying to help and you get arsey.

 

[Mrflibble]

no would need two at the min
so min 100 amps just for them

Are you basing that on heating to domestic comfort levels? We don’t require that sort of temperature to be maintained.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Are you basing that on heating to domestic comfort levels? We don’t require that sort of temperature to be maintained.

room temp of 18dc at -10dc outside

 

[Mrflibble]

no would need two at the min
so min 100 amps just for them

I’m struggling with that calculation, on the basis that a 12KW boiler is sufficient to heat a 3 bedroom house in real world tests?
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Here’s the old oil burning plant. Does anyone fancy recommissioning it? We will also need a tank if it’s to run on oil.

 

[Brambles]

Mr Flibble,

If you are looking for a low level of heat what about an air source heat pump either air to water or air to water to warm air.

I appreciate that the costing side may look high at first glance - but there is quite an extensive array of grants and Govt. funded support available to at least look at the feasibility of a scheme.

Lowcarbondorset advise Charities on the support available for such ideas. They only cover Dorset, but could probably direct you to a sister organisation that covers your area. They very knowledgeable of both the funding available and how to capture it.

We recently installed a secondhand 13KW ASHP, driving a ducted air system for a charity in Kings Langley. The design was to heat an archive of training records to 15 degrees.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

you should be able to get a lpg air handling unit and fit it into the existing system best contact a hvac company

 

[Mrflibble]

you should be able to get a lpg air handling unit and fit it into the existing system best contact a hvac company

I doubt any of them will be interested in dealing with us, they weren’t particularly keen when we were previously in a different building with HVAC.
Unless anyone has any recommendations?
We are located between Cambridge and the A1M.
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Garbutt Heaters Ltd unfortunately appears to be defunct.

 

[SJB060685]

That looks like an old Nu Way Selectos burner, don't see many of them about now. Unfortunately, although I have a good understanding of commercial and industrial oil burners I don't have the experience with them I would like. If you're going to go down that route I suggest looking for a guy or firm that have experience with these older units, you're nowhere near me so I cant recommend anyone but there will be some out there that have the knowledge you need.

 

[Mrflibble]

That looks like an old Nu Way Selectos burner, don't see many of them about now. Unfortunately, although I have a good understanding of commercial and industrial oil burners I don't have the experience with them I would like. If you're going to go down that route I suggest looking for a guy or firm that have experience with these older units, you're nowhere near me so I cant recommend anyone but there will be some out there that have the knowledge you need.

Thank you but we’re not intending to recommission the oil burner. Based on what’s missing combined with the safety and insurance aspects, it’s not viable.

The question is as @ShaunCorbs states above, if that burner unit can be replaced with one which heats indirectly by LPG?
I fear that in the time we have left to make the building usable, this will be difficult or impossible to accomplish.

 

[SJB060685]

Thank you but we’re not intending to recommission the oil burner. Based on what’s missing combined with the safety and insurance aspects, it’s not viable.

The question is as @ShaunCorbs states above, if that burner unit can be replaced with one which heats indirectly by LPG?
I fear that in the time we have left to make the building usable, this will be difficult or impossible to accomplish.

Honestly I wouldn't know. It is as you say an indirect warm air heater, clearly you know the difference between direct and indirect but I couldn't say whether an LPG conversion is possible.
You are however in a perfect position to make a fresh start, whichever route you choose to take.
Again just to illiterate you're asking on a forum with many specialist, you will always get multiple suggestions.
ShaunCorbs has done the math for you, which takes time, so you know what the KW required is to heat this space and the required KW input is.
Whatever the route you take this will be a nice install, I do however suggest you search for the right firm whatever route you take.

 

[Mrflibble]

Can anyone who has fitted an electric boiler tell me if they fitted a system filter?
They don’t seem to be specified by manufacturer. Thanks.

 

[Murdoch]

Because at this time the landlord has not installed a meter.

They will once they realise you have installed an electric boiler