Discuss Do I need a 2nd gas meter or will upgrade suffice? in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

Cerendib,

You need to get a decent heating engineer to review the complete requirements for your property and put some credible recommendations to you

If you are oversizing a boiler because the house is leaking hot air and is poorly insulated - you will get far better value by investing in insulation and draughtproofing, rather than spending money on excessive gas consumption. As an order of magnitude, 70kw of gas fired heating at full tilt is going to burn gas at the rate of around £2.80/hr.

A properly configured 35kw boiler, with the correct smart controls should be more than capable of providing heating and hot water for a large properly where a number of the rooms are not in regular use.

Apologies if this sounds rather blunt,
Cerendib,

You need to get a decent heating engineer to review the complete requirements for your property and put some credible recommendations to you

If you are oversizing a boiler because the house is leaking hot air and is poorly insulated - you will get far better value by investing in insulation and draughtproofing, rather than spending money on excessive gas consumption. As an order of magnitude, 70kw of gas fired heating at full tilt is going to burn gas at the rate of around £2.80/hr.

A properly configured 35kw boiler, with the correct smart controls should be more than capable of providing heating and hot water for a large properly where a number of the rooms are not in regular use.

Apologies if this sounds rather blunt,

Thanks for your repy - and also to ShaunCorbs, Stu-B, and king of pipes - your views are appreciated.

However, you are all viewing the heating/hot water problem from a whole house review perspective, there are practical as well as financial difficulties with this.

The d/s combi is working fine and less than 10 years old. The d/s c/h is separate from the u/s and has always been so from when the heating was put in so to re-design the heating/hot water for the whole house as one would mean removing the boiler, joining the two systems (if this was posible or practical), with the probable disturbance to the small-bore pipework and consequent leaks under the floorboards - the disruption, time and expense of this let alone the trouble of removing whole rooms's worth of contents to take up floorboards is simply not worth it. The pipework for the d/s and u/s was put in with the original c/h and boilers nearly 50 years ago and is micro-bore (10mm) as that was the way it was done, (much more malleable and easy to sweep bends so eliminating need for most t's and elbows - amongst other reasons I'm sure) and we have had no problems with the pipework. Throughout the house where we have replaced rads we have replace pipework with 15mm but he majority is still 10mm. I have spoken to other heating engineers about this option some 3-4 years ago, The (current) installer, (he does call himself a 'heating engineer' - am I denigrating his job by callling him an 'installer'? I have avoided calling him just a 'plumber' for this reason), has recommended that he does not power-flush the system because his certainty that the pipework will not take it. As for being decent - he is courteous, friendly - and polite!

I am not "oversizing a boiler because the house is leaking hot air and is poorly insulated", the house is (almost) as well insulated as it can be. All windows and external doors are double glazed, all external walls where we have re-decorated the rooms (most of them) are internally insulated, the loft is going to be insulated (floor/walls/roof) shortly (local authority grant) even before we convert it, and there are no draughts.
This is an old Victorian house with many internal plasterwork features so internal insulation not always complete unless we cover these up completely and remove all character of the room but we have done as much as is possible. With solid walls, it is theoretically possible to fit external wall insulation but is extremely expensive and may not be allowed as it would reduce the alley width between houses on either side (I'm certain the neighbours would object) - and completely ruin the front bay windows - even if the local authority approved.

As for excessive gas consumption this is a false assumption: our gas consumption is not likely to rise. The u/s will be used to the same extent as it has always been used by the same number of people for the same frequency. When, and if, the attic is fully converted we may have a couple more persons up there using the heating/hot water and this may or may not be for extended periods. If this results in much bigger consumption then yes we'll have to find a way of meeting this, or re-evaluating the usage, but I am simple trying to give ourselves the best option without having to end up with a converted unusable space which cannot be used at a later date.

Anyone used this gas volume calculation (see earlier) when considering meter capacity?
 
Your requirements with the set up you’ve suggested is 7m3h so outside capacity of a u6

Roughly to get the gas meter changed to a u16 is around £5k last quote I had 3 months ago

If it was me I would do the whole system and do it right once
 
Cerendib,

Many thanks for taking the time to explain the background and the reasoning behind your plans for the way forward.

I think you can only be guided by a good local heating engineer who has seen the property first hand.

Just have in mind that the service providers for Gas are not regulated in the same way as the providers for electricity / water or sewage who have imposed ceilings on the maximum charges that they can levy. With Gas they charge the actual costs to either connect or make changes to an installation.

Shaun is far more experienced in these matters than I am, but I have never had a quotation from a Gas service provider for amending a Gas meter location that I thought was anywhere near reasonable. My last one was £3,640 to move a U6 meter 35 feet. You also have to pay them to remove it as and when in the future.

I hope that you have found the comments from those who responded to you useful and informative,
 
Your requirements with the set up you’ve suggested is 7m3h so outside capacity of a u6

Roughly to get the gas meter changed to a u16 is around £5k last quote I had 3 months ago

If it was me I would do the whole system and do it right once

Yes I believe you are right, my installer said as much although he did not give me a figure for the flow, btw how do you calculate this?

My supplier (ESB) have told me when I made a phone enquiry that they do not charge for replacing a U6 with a U16.
Later I asked them about the charge for a 2nd meter, which they said they would email me, and asked at the same time to confirm there was no charge for the meter upgrade - still waiting on their email.
Hope they won't decide to change their mind.

Still puzzled about this gas volume business, won't the U16 be able to deal with higher volume requirements than a U6, or is the type of meter irrelevant?
[automerge]1572105863[/automerge]
Cerendib,

Many thanks for taking the time to explain the background and the reasoning behind your plans for the way forward.

I think you can only be guided by a good local heating engineer who has seen the property first hand.

Just have in mind that the service providers for Gas are not regulated in the same way as the providers for electricity / water or sewage who have imposed ceilings on the maximum charges that they can levy. With Gas they charge the actual costs to either connect or make changes to an installation.

Shaun is far more experienced in these matters than I am, but I have never had a quotation from a Gas service provider for amending a Gas meter location that I thought was anywhere near reasonable. My last one was £3,640 to move a U6 meter 35 feet. You also have to pay them to remove it as and when in the future.

I hope that you have found the comments from those who responded to you useful and informative,

Absolutely no problem Brambles. My view is that if I want anyone to bother to take their time time to read, consider and reply giving me the benefit of their knowledge and experience the least I could do is to inform them of the facts as I see them. I realize my posts have been somewhat long and considered editing them down but I feel that the more (relevant) info I give the more able others are to give more informed advice.

I will bear what you say in mind re. gas supplier charges. I am waiting for their email regarding this (as I mentioned above to Shaun).

I have indeed found all comments useful and informative and am fully appreciative of all who have taken the time, it has been and continues to be an interesting - and steep - learning experience.
 
Last edited:
add all your appliance up

eg

wb 28kw
new boiler 35kw
gas hob 8kw
+ 10%

=78kw required so 80kw thats what you tell the gas / networks people you need a supply capable of ^^

not just the gas meter that needs to be upgraded chances are the supply pipe eg the pipe from the main to the gas meter (supply side) will need to be increased hence the charge

as for meters

u6 = 6m3h/h
u16 = 16m3/h
 
add all your appliance up

eg

wb 28kw
new boiler 35kw
gas hob 8kw
+ 10%

=78kw required so 80kw thats what you tell the gas / networks people you need a supply capable of ^^

not just the gas meter that needs to be upgraded chances are the supply pipe eg the pipe from the main to the gas meter (supply side) will need to be increased hence the charge

as for meters

u6 = 6m3h/h
u16 = 16m3/h

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant how did you calculate the 7m3h? But it's not that important as I know it will be over the U6 capacity.

Meter flow rates I got from previous, but the key question is: is there a limit on the volume of gas in the pipes, elbow, t's above which necessitates a 2nd meter, irrespective of whether the existing meter is a U6 or U16? And how is that calculated?
My installer says that the volume of gas in the system plus the new pipework (approx. 12m x 28mm) exceeds the capacity/allowance from one domestic meter, even if it's a U16. So I have to get a 2nd meter. I haven't seen his calculations.
In May this year you replied to a previous posting where a domestic engineer asked if he was allowed to work on a job where the gas volume calculation came below a certain number, and you did a calculation. But I can't find any mention, here or elsewhere, of a calculation of gas volume for a U6/U16 meter to see if I really do need a 2nd one.

Cadent /Nat. Grid are coming tomorrow to assess the supply pipe and I will ask if 80kW means I need a new pipe - hopefully not.
 
In May this year you replied to a previous posting where a domestic engineer asked if he was allowed to work on a job where the gas volume calculation came below a certain number, and you did a calculation. But I can't find any mention, here or elsewhere, of a calculation of gas volume for a U6/U16 meter to see if I really do need a 2nd one.

That's figure referred to is more associated with pipework testing requirements above which an engineer has to be commercial qualified due to the procedures used.
It's not a figure that relates to the capacity / sizing requirements of a meter or system design.
 

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