Dedicated circuit for Boiler Power

[ian.]

Hi,

My existing system boiler if fed via a fused connection unit off the ring final circuit, when the boiler is replaced is it a requirement/best practice, that the boiler is fed via a dedicated circuit from the consumer unit to the fused connection unit.

Cheers

Ian

 

[ShaunCorbs]

its fine off the ring/ as it its

 

[Murdoch]

Hi,

My existing system boiler if fed via a fused connection unit off the ring final circuit, when the boiler is replaced is it a requirement/best practice, that the boiler is fed via a dedicated circuit from the consumer unit to the fused connection unit.

Cheers

Ian

Contributing as spark .............. no

Why do you ask

 

[Vee]

Leaving it on the ring circuit is not "Best Practice". A dedictated circuit is.

 

[Murdoch]

Leaving it on the ring circuit is not "Best Practice". A dedictated circuit is.

Rubbish.

A 3A fused spur does not need its own circuit...

 

[ian.]

Contributing as spark ... no

Why do you ask

Hi,

If a new circuit is required I can get this sorted in advance of the boiler replacement.

 

[Murdoch]

Hi,

If a new circuit is required I can get this sorted in advance of the boiler replacement.

It's not required

 

[ian.]

Leaving it on the ring circuit is not "Best Practice". A dedictated circuit is.

Thanks to the forum I now know is not an 'electrical' requirement, is the dedicated circuit preferred by plumbing professional trade bodies as best practice

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Nope aslong as there's a fused spur it doesn't matter a feed could even be taken off the lighting circuit if acceptable (loading etc)

 

[Murdoch]

Thanks to the forum I now know is not an 'electrical' requirement, is the dedicated circuit preferred by plumbing professional trade bodies as best practice

If you are having an electric boiler fitted, yes a dedicated circuit would be required ............but for a gas boiler absolutely not a requirement.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

If you are having an electric boiler fitted, yes a dedicated circuit would be required ...but for a gas boiler absolutely not a requirement.

I may be wrong but an elec boiler rated at 3kw should be fine ?

 

[Murdoch]

I may be wrong but an elec boiler rated at 3kw should be fine ?

Hum........ I wouldn't, sure if it had a 13A plug on it but anything with a load above 2 Kw should be on its own circuit

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Hum.... I wouldn't, sure if it had a 13A plug on it but anything with a load above 2 Kw should be on its own circuit

would a fcu be acceptable ? just thinking of those 3kw wall/panel heaters

 

[ian.]

Thanks guys for the clarity, in my case it is a gas fuelled system boiler, electrically everything is fine, so I’ll leave it as is, I just didn’t want to fall foul if some other requirement I wasn’t aware of that I could sort in advance.

 

[Vee]

Rubbish.

Surely that depends on what it is supplying.

 

[Murdoch]

Surely that depends on what it is supplying.

I note you have edited my full response

Are you a troll

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Surely that depends on what it is supplying.

like????

 

[Vee]

I note you have edited my full response

Are you a troll

No. I edited my own response. Touch of paranoia?

 

[Vee]

like????

A dedicated supply to a piece of equipment you do not want disturbed by tripping from faults by other electrical items or that requires more sensitive RCD’s or different protection to that provided in a standard CU.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

A dedicated supply to a piece of equipment you do not want disturbed by tripping from faults by other electrical items or that requires more sensitive RCD’s or different protection to that provided in a standard CU.

thats ok if the system is rcbo but if its on a split board half of its going off when the rcd trips any way

 

[Murdoch]

A dedicated supply to a piece of equipment you do not want disturbed by tripping from faults by other electrical items or that requires more sensitive RCD’s or different protection to that provided in a standard CU.

There are no regulations that state this ....

But there are regulations about spurs off spurs, which plumbers tend to ignore.

 

[Murdoch]

There are no regulations that state this ..

But there are regulations about spurs off spurs, which plumbers tend to ignore.

Vee- you can disagree with me you like, but please offer up a BS 7671 reg number to back up your position

 

[Vee]

You are missing the point as this is not about regulations, but what is correct for a particular scenario. You are generalising for a boiler.

 

[Murdoch]

You are missing the point as this is not about regulations, but what is correct for a particular scenario. You are generalising for a boiler.

Err no.

I am offering a direct answer to the op.

His question was do I need a dedicated fused spur for a new gas boiler.

The answer is no.

 

[Vee]

There are no regulations that state this ..

But there are regulations about spurs off spurs, which plumbers tend to ignore.

Equally electricans often fail to understand controls.

Err no.

I am offering a direct answer to the op.

His question was do I need a dedicated fused spur for a new gas boiler.

The answer is no.

He asked about Best Practice, not just the minimum requirement under the Regs. Surely that can differ?

 

[Vee]

A dedicated supply to a piece of equipment you do not want disturbed by tripping from faults by other electrical items or that requires more sensitive RCD’s or different protection to that provided in a standard CU.

Murdock - You surely understand what I am saying her and if you where so up on your Regs you would not disagree with this. Have we touched a nerve?

 

[Murdoch]

Not touched a nerve ... Just making sure an unsuspecting client isn't badly advised by a plumber, regarding electrical regulations.

It's that simple.

 

[Vee]

Not touched a nerve . Just making sure an unsuspecting client isn't badly advised by a plumber, regarding electrical regulations.

It's that simple.

What makes you think you are the only electrician on here?

 

[Murdoch]

What makes you think you are the only electrician on here?

Didn't say I was.

Maybe the op should post the question on the electricians forum, and see what they say.

 

[bacon_sandwich]

I am an electrician and install boilers.. lol
No requirement as Murdoch says but if it was my house, it was easy, and i had a RCBO board, then definitly i would give it a dedicated cct.
Boilers often have zone valves, boilers also often leak, when i am fault finding a tripping RCD, boilers like outside lights and outside sockets are well up there as potential culprits. Having a dedicated cct just makes it easier to find and reduce the nuisance factor

 

[fixitflav]

I may be wrong but an elec boiler rated at 3kw should be fine ?

3kW wouldn't keep the house very warm

 

[Ric2013]

Personally, I would like to see the boiler on a dedicated RCBO, if it were a new installation in my own house.

I have lived in places where trivial faults on a heating system (normally a room stat, weirdly) have tended to trip the RCD, and it nice to be able to pinpoint the cause more easily. That said, where I live at present, the fused spur is off the ring main and it has not caused any trouble in the last two years and I have no intention of having a new circuit installed at the present moment.

Thinking to the last time I read the electrical regulations (not that I am an electrician), I think there was some point made about the advisability of designing a system to avoid nuisance tripping, but I think this was to be interpreted by the designer of the installation. As you are not installing an entire new electrical system, I doubt you would be expected to have a dedicated circuit for a replacement gas boiler, but I expect some people will disagree: if there's one thing I have learnt about electricians, it is that no two will agree on everything.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

3kW wouldn't keep the house very warm

How do you know the heatloss

 

[fixitflav]

How do you know the heatloss

I don't, but I'd hazard a guess that if it's for a whole house the heat requirement is well above 3kW

 

[quality]

I don't, but I'd hazard a guess that if it's for a whole house the heat requirement is well above 3kW

I appreciate your logic and your quite right I would guess a whole house is above 3Kw. A jobwe did recently did surprise myself I had to double check my calcs.
A barn conversion with heat pump in mind from the beginning. The total heat loss for 3 bed, 2 en-suite, lounge dinner, large kitchen etc. etc. was just 4.2 Kw. It cost a few quid and there was plenty of non standard work but shows things can be done very well when the money is there. Sorry to hijack the post

 

[Vee]

Not touched a nerve . Just making sure an unsuspecting client isn't badly advised by a plumber, regarding electrical regulations.

It's that simple.

Thanks to the forum I now know is not an 'electrical' requirement, is the dedicated circuit preferred by plumbing professional trade bodies as best practice

Vee- you can disagree with me you like, but please offer up a BS 7671 reg number to back up your position

BS7671 314.1 Every installation shall be divided into circuits, as necessary, to:
(i) avoid danger and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault
(ii) facilitate safe inspection, testing and maintenance.
& (iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCD's due to excessive protective conductor (PE) currents not due to a fault
BS7671 314.2 Separate circuits shall be provided for parts of the installation which need to be separately controlled, in such way that those circuits are not affected by the failure of other circuits, and due account shall be taken of the consequences of the operation of any single protective device.
Interpretation of Best Practice within this is of course in the eye of the electrician.

 

[fixitflav]

I appreciate your logic and your quite right I would guess a whole house is above 3Kw. A jobwe did recently did surprise myself I had to double check my calcs.
A barn conversion with heat pump in mind from the beginning. The total heat loss for 3 bed, 2 en-suite, lounge dinner, large kitchen etc. etc. was just 4.2 Kw. It cost a few quid and there was plenty of non standard work but shows things can be done very well when the money is there. Sorry to hijack the post

Are there systems out there with usual pump and rads, but electric boiler? I've never seen one, not that that proves anything. I'd have thought if you were going for electric you might as well have a heater in each room, or even storage heaters.

 

[Murdoch]

BS7671 314.1 Every installation shall be divided into circuits, as necessary, to:
(i) avoid danger and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault
(ii) facilitate safe inspection, testing and maintenance.
& (iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCD's due to excessive protective conductor (PE) currents not due to a fault
BS7671 314.2 Separate circuits shall be provided for parts of the installation which need to be separately controlled, in such way that those circuits are not affected by the failure of other circuits, and due account shall be taken of the consequences of the operation of any single protective device.
Interpretation of Best Practice within this is of course in the eye of the electrician.

And your point is?

The above points are relevant to new designs and considerations for changes to existing installations.

Swapping a boiler is neither of the above

You are precisely the type of individual that goes out of their way to confuse un-suspecting clients and spend unnecessary money.

A gas boiler does not need to be on a individual circuit.............

For all you know the OP may have any older fuseboard with a single upfront RCD ............. so putting in another circuit would have absolutely no benefit to him.

And new circuits fall under Part P of the building regs too.

 

[Chester]

Are there systems out there with usual pump and rads, but electric boiler? I've never seen one, not that that proves anything. I'd have thought if you were going for electric you might as well have a heater in each room, or even storage heaters.

Yeah potterton gold is one. Heat only electric.

 

[Ric2013]

And your point is?

The above points are relevant to new designs and considerations for changes to existing installations.

Swapping a boiler is neither of the above

You are precisely the type of individual that goes out of their way to confuse un-suspecting clients and spend unnecessary money.

A gas boiler does not need to be on a individual circuit..

For all you know the OP may have any older fuseboard with a single upfront RCD .. so putting in another circuit would have absolutely no benefit to him.

And new circuits fall under Part P of the building regs too.

Yes, but surely the minute you touch an existing installation, you start to become responsible for it?

If I have BS 3036 fuses and rubber cable in poor condition and then I replace my electric cooker with one of similar current draw to the existing one, I would not be changing an existing installation either, but can I legally do so? I know you can't do it the other way around (i.e. put a new circuit in to feed a piece of electrical equipment that is only running on Grandfathers' rights, and also in poor state), but can you do it this way round? My feeling is that, like running a new light fitting onto a circuit that would not pass an EICR, the answer is 'no'.

Having said all that, I would agree that most electricians would probably not interpret the regulations to mean a new boiler MUST be on an independent circuit, as Vee has not denied.

 

[Murdoch]

Yes, but surely the minute you touch an existing installation, you start to become responsible for it?

If I have BS 3036 fuses and rubber cable in poor condition and then I replace my electric cooker with one of similar current draw to the existing one, I would not be changing an existing installation either, but can I legally do so? I know you can't do it the other way around (i.e. put a new circuit in to feed a piece of electrical equipment that is only running on Grandfathers' rights, and also in poor state), but can you do it this way round? My feeling is that, like running a new light fitting onto a circuit that would not pass an EICR, the answer is 'no'.

Having said all that, I would agree that most electricians would probably not interpret the regulations to mean a new boiler MUST be on an independent circuit, as Vee has not denied.

Not if all you are doing is disconnecting 1 accessory and connecting a new one.

The OP's question was does a new gas boiler (in an existing installation) need to be on a dedicated circuit.

The answer is no.

What an designer / installer would do on a refurb/ rewire / new build is a completely different question all together

 

[Vee]

Not if all you are doing is disconnecting 1 accessory and connecting a new one.

The OP's question was does a new gas boiler (in an existing installation) need to be on a dedicated circuit.

The answer is no.

What an designer / installer would do on a refurb/ rewire / new build is a completely different question all together

You conviently ignore the OP's question/reference of "Best Practice". I accept and did not contradict your minimum standard you wish to apply is legally acceptable. That does not make it the best way of dealing with it. Surely anyone is allowed to promote a better way of doing things in order to give customers a choice. Especially when they are informed,willing and wanting to pay for that.

 

[Murdoch]

You conviently ignore the OP's question/reference of "Best Practice". I accept and did not contradict your minimum standard you wish to apply is legally acceptable. That does not make it the best way of dealing with it. Surely anyone is allowed to promote a better way of doing things in order to give customers a choice. Especially when they are informed,willing and wanting to pay for that.

Best practice on existing installations is largely irrelevant unless it doesn't mean lifting boards, dropping ceiling and chasing walls

 

[Murdoch]

You conviently ignore the OP's question/reference of "Best Practice". I accept and did not contradict your minimum standard you wish to apply is legally acceptable. That does not make it the best way of dealing with it. Surely anyone is allowed to promote a better way of doing things in order to give customers a choice. Especially when they are informed,willing and wanting to pay for that.

I've covered this in my responses ..................... If the OP is happy to have boards lifted, walls chased, floors disturbed then its UP TO HIM

But there is absolutely NO NEED in existing installations.

Do you insist on zoning houses when you change a boiler?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I've covered this in my responses .... If the OP is happy to have boards lifted, walls chased, floors disturbed then its UP TO HIM

But there is absolutely NO NEED in existing installations.

Do you insist on zoning houses when you change a boiler?

Zoning is a building reg mate so it's needed

 

[Murdoch]

Zoning is a building reg mate so it's needed

When you just change a boiler?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

When you just change a boiler?

Yes

 

[Vee]

I've covered this in my responses .... If the OP is happy to have boards lifted, walls chased, floors disturbed then its UP TO HIM

But there is absolutely NO NEED in existing installations.

Do you insist on zoning houses when you change a boiler?

So what your point?
We obviously agree that if the OP wishes to chose Best Practice over minimum requirement he can.
The choices you offer to your unsuspecting customers is your perogative.
Sincerely hope you are reading the Building Regs before advising them on plumbing and heating.

 

[Murdoch]

Yes

Got smacked ... so when our boiler needs replacing our house has to be zoned ?

Most new boilers I see are simple like for like changes .....

One refurb I’m on, a flat isn’t zoned ...neither was the last house refurb I was on .... what are the GSR s upto then ?

Most new installs in refurbs are zoned ... but not all ....

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Got smacked . so when our boiler needs replacing our house has to be zoned ?

Most new boilers I see are simple like for like changes ...

One refurb I’m on, a flat isn’t zoned ...neither was the last house refurb I was on .. what are the GSR s upto then ?

Most new installs in refurbs are zoned . but not all ..

Depends on system should give you an insight below

Combi boilers your fine
Heat only needs an s plan installing
Floor by floor zoning house over 150sq m