Competent persons and legalities.

[Stree]

Hello, browsed before and get good information and tips, and after this last weeks adeventures I thought it as good a time as any to join and ask a question ( or two) that hopefully can be clearly answered by the professionals on the forum.

Firstly a little background, not in the wet trades myself, mostly a chippy but bit of electricals, tiling etc and enough plumbing so that installation of kitchens, bathrooms etc. are never a problem.

Anyway, my elderly next door neighbour rang me last week and asked if I would look at her boiler, hardly anything on the rads and no hot water.
This boiler , a Halstead Eden CBX32 was installed July 2009. I saw that it had zero pressure and the reset LED was lit red,so I topped up to 1.5 bar and reset. Boiler fired for 30 seconds then turned off and the pressure slowly worked back to zero. Maybe air introduced I thought so a quick check for air in rads. No air. Anyway topped up about 5 times and each time back to zero, so gave in and called Halsteads to ask for advice.....Well those days are certainly gone, all they would tell me is to use a damp cloth to wipe the case..........So had to ask for local Halstead approved engineer.
I am fairly new to the area so do not yet have a CH engineer that I could swear by, so was hesitant to just find a yellow pages one.
Anyway, Halstead approved engineer visited, declared pressure vessel had died and PRV valve was leaking....Just happened to have these on the van, but not the washer to seal the PRV.
Whether this was an olive or O ring or Fibre washer I do not know but it cost another call out charge to come and fit it next day Seemed unfair.
Anyway, return visit, leak sealed, fired up and system no different No DHW and lukewarm/ cold rads. Engineer called gaffer who joined in and replaced another pressure valve? the pump head and the diverter motor.
Still no different. However, gaffer said to save money my mate and I could fit an auto bypass and run a cleaner through the system and he reckoned that would clear it because there "must be a blockage."
OK willing to believe that at the time, so drained the system to fit bypass, and noted the water was colour of very weak tea. hardly the black sludge we were expecting. Anyway put some OLD system cleaner through it over night, checked pressure, fired up and still burning just 30 seconds and off.Not locking out, just burner switching off. Tried DHW, the boiler almost jumped of the wall, violent banging, howling and pressure wentto zero then shot full way round off the scale! Shut it down Pressure at zero
Refilled, bled boiler through top vent, fired up and same again.
Boiler would run all day in it 30 sec every 4 mins mode but thats all.
Locked out all rads and opened each in turn. Equal lukewarm heat to each, proving flow.
Rang Gaffer engineer who promised he would come out and fit a hydrblock at total cost of one hours labour.
Got a call from his office this morning saying he meant he would do this after we had fitted the bypass valve AND done a double cleaning cycle.......Cleaner circulating for 4 weeks, then flush, then repeat
and after eight weeks we could let him know if there was still an issue. Meanwhile a lady by herself semi invalid in her mid eighties has just a 2 bar electric fire and a kettle for heating and hot water and we know what the temperatures have been like.
Now this engineer strongly advised me not attempt anything that involved getting to the innards of the boiler although happy for us to fit bypass, flush system etc, even though I stressed that I would only be looking at the water side, no gas.
Anyway, after his bill for £690:00 dropped on the customers mat and his advice re: double cleaning cycle we duly took the front off, lifted out the secondary heat exchanger, got rid of the accumulated sediment and scale that clogged the filter with a solid mass, and I mean solid, poke with screwdriver to loosen type solid. Not even 8 weeks would have shifted that.
Anyway, we cleaned it, replaced it, oh and unclipped the pipe from the primary heat exchanger because that was clogged solid too up to halfway so not as far as the main heat exchanger. Thats a fiddly clip at the top with the O ring !
filled, bled, fired up and have a beautifully behaved quick to heat and very quiet boiler, rads as hot as you wish and very quick DHW piping hot, and NO leaks.

Now, with the 2 GS reg engineers that installed the system, the 3 that followed shortly after that who between them replaced the mains in turbine, pcb and a heat sensor, in a vain attempt to get it to work, and this latest Halstead approved engineer and gaffer I have mentioned, we have a total of SEVEN Gas Safe engineers, none of whom was able to leave this system running. But all charged for time and parts, Now I doubt that some of these parts were needed and just stabs in the dark because they were unable to logically work out what the real issue was.
The lady customer has asked if she could get some recompense, I wish she could, but it has been suggested to me that if any engineer I have a complaint against finds out I have been in the boiler even just on the water side, then the boiler will be condemned and we will be liable to prosecution. Is this so?

 

[bob the plumber]

they would have to prove you have been in the boiler, and you haven't. And as for the bill to the old lady don't pay it, the boiler hasn't been repaired. Get a decent guy to have a look off here

 

[bob the plumber]

ignore that comment, i appear to have missed half your post lol

 

[Stree]

Fair enough, thanks for looking and relooking anyway Bob

 

[REDSAW]

dont know the guys you got but i had diagnosed the fault before half reading it.

does this post come in kindle version .lol.?.

 

[Best]

Two things would be great for a engineer to possess - experience & honesty. And probably honesty is most important! The piece of paper they have, that says they are gas qualified, just makes them legal to do the work.
I have seen several gas boilers that the " experts " have either walked away from or put loads parts on, without success or fitted a new boiler!
I know a top electronic & mechanical engineer, who can tell me what is wrong easily. He says most plumbers shouldn't be working on gas boilers as most havent a clue & just replace bits. Think he is spot on.

 

[SimonJohns]

I'm with redsaw. Simple fault that should of been picked up in 15min of full diagnostics

 

[GQuigley67]

prob guys desperate for work and not got a clue about boiler repairs, its a whole different ball game to installing boilers. Need to be able to understand the operation of the boiler and be competent with a multimeter, and know when to phone manufacturers for advice.

 

[Stree]

Whilst I agree with the comments regarding proficiency with tools and the undoubted value of experience, I had to sit and think logically about what goes on inside this boiler and what could cause the symptoms, lack of flow, steam exploding when hot water called for, so a blockage, and only one logical place where all this could stem from. Thats about my only boiler experience apart from filling loops.
As for the desperate for work probability, as far as I know these guys could not get round their jobs fast enough, lots of calls and bookings. I wonder how many return bookings and recommendations though.
I still would really like to know where I stand though for going inside the boiler, even though no gas work.

 

[Mike Jackson]

If you work on any of the gas carrying components or remove the combustion chamber door you need to be competent. Competency is a difficult thing to assess so it is generally accepted that you should have passed a recognised qualification.

 

[Ruski]

If you work on any of the gas carrying components or remove the combustion chamber door you need to be competent. Competency is a difficult thing to assess so it is generally accepted that you should have passed a recognised qualification.

So how come the 'experts' on the likes of Watchdog say as soon as you remove the boiler cover you've commited an offence?!?!?
I'm quite happy not to touch anything gas related, but changing a pump, for example, on a combi, according to them is deemed a no-no - scaremongering??

 

[lambchop]

I have been to a boiler call out where it had a positive case seal and previous guys have not identified this (I write on my paperwork and of course do the relevant checks). As soon as Ruski takes off the casing on this type of boiler, he's breaking the law! If hes not GSR he more than likely does not know what this is, here lies the problem.

Yes its an old type of boiler but they are still out there and i know a combi is used as an example on the above post but in order to protect people a general rule I feel is appropriateis if your not gas safe its best to leve it alone imho.

 

[Stree]

Lambchop.

Thats all very well, but what about this particular case? An elderly lady living by herself, a new central heating installation with a boiler that worked or rather limped through summer then all but died at the outset of winter.
SEVEN different fully "competent" and lawfully registered gas engineers.....all claiming the be central heating "specialists" failing to spot the fault let alone rectify it, yet still managing to fit £1100:00 of components and literally thousands in labour charges?
I studied the boiler schematics, read up on similar boiler faults and determined what it most likely was. No parts needed, just seeing to a routine maintenance part and the boiler works fine.
So trust a gas engineer? certainly not those that were involved in this lark, and hard to consider ever trusting any of them ever again.

 

[DirksPlumbing]

I have been to a boiler call out where it had a positive case seal and previous guys have not identified this (I write on my paperwork and of course do the relevant checks). As soon as Ruski takes off the casing on this type of boiler, he's breaking the law! If hes not GSR he more than likely does not know what this is, here lies the problem.

Yes its an old type of boiler but they are still out there and i know a combi is used as an example on the above post but in order to protect people a general rule I feel is appropriateis if your not gas safe its best to leve it alone imho.

I very much agree on this. Without the know how it is easy to loosen a few screws and do something and some are luckier or even cleverer than others but...

It should not be done. On the other side we trust our sparks enough to take the cover off and wire controls without watching over their shoulder all the time. The boiler cover is a bit a grey area as much as the electrics are falling under a different set of regulations anyway.

But if anything goes wrong it is most of the time sticking out like a soar thumb if someone without training had touched things. There is little place to hide unless all that knew who it was died in the possible tragic accident.

And if it is a breakdown only the invoice usually gets adjusted to allow for extensive testing. Plus the caused long term damage usually teaches most customers to avoid this kind of experiments in future.

 

[Stree]

Dirk, really?? so what about my post before you posted? no gas parts touched at all. Are we laymen not even to be trusted with mains water? Tell me what you would have done in my place if you had not been gas safe?

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Our policy is - if we can't fix it and get it goinf we don't charge and we don't charge anything until it is working.
And I think that is normal for any reputalbe business that gets lots of word or mouth refferal and repeat customers - like the other guys & girls on here.

I think she stands a very good chance of getting the bills dramatically reduced or completely squashed - with a bit of help.

First question - did the business tell you how much it was going to cost before hand?

Now I am just going to read it all again and I will get back to you later - don't pay anything yet!

 

[DirksPlumbing]

Dirk, really?? so what about my post before you posted? no gas parts touched at all. Are we laymen not even to be trusted with mains water? Tell me what you would have done in my place if you had not been gas safe?

In specific mains water underlies rules and regulations too but because the effects of wrongdoing are less dramatic it is not that heavy controlled. But you can easily kill elder/vulnerable people and toddlers by ignoring general aspects of stored water for example. Though you can not bank on it being lethal. Mains water has to be kept hygienic at all times and contaminations to be avoided or at least minimized. Now you tell me any prime examples on how to do this?

I do understand the desperation and yes you done likely good. But who guarantees your next customer that you have not become over confident?
Do you know the difference between a positive pressure and a negative pressure boiler? And what to do in the one or the other case? Do you know the possible impact on other parts by fiddeling within a boiler? Do you even know which parts are to be classed as parts of the flue/combustion chamber?

Unfortunately I can not tell what I would have done as I am GSR and because of that I know a few guys that I could have asked straight away. You had done well with your analysis. Possibly you should have pushed one of the "experts" the right way instead.

But ask yourself, is working with a circular saw life threatening? But what do you tell a trainee that has been using one without prior instructions and is now rushed to A&E with some fingers in a plastic bag with ice?

 

[Stree]

Our policy is - if we can't fix it and get it goinf we don't charge and we don't charge anything until it is working.
And I think that is normal for any reputalbe business that gets lots of word or mouth refferal and repeat customers - like the other guys & girls on here.

I think she stands a very good chance of getting the bills dramatically reduced or completely squashed - with a bit of help.

First question - did the business tell you how much it was going to cost before hand?

Now I am just going to read it all again and I will get back to you later - don't pay anything yet!

Tara,

Thank you for your interest.. As for paying, that is history now. I was called in after the event, apart from the Halstead engineers who would only go ahead on the proviso that they would "try" to fix it, otherwise a new boiler. ( Note this boiler is only months old has not worked properly since installation) Seeing as these were manufacturer nominated engineers and every independent so far had failed, nowhere else to go really.............It is when they to failed miserably and expensively that I stepped in. Much to the chagrin of the registered engineers here who would rather the old lass froze to death than have a regulation infringed. By the way,the boiler has worked non stop since, flawlessly.

 

[DirksPlumbing]

Much to the chagrin of the registered engineers here who would rather the old lass froze to death than have a regulation infringed. By the way,the boiler has worked non stop since, flawlessly.

Thanks for that, I think most of us have not failed yet to provide our customers with the service and solution they needed. Once you know the regulations, you as well can use them to provide the customer with a fairly safe (legally and technically) provisional solution.

I have seen a few things already but so many engineers failing casts a bad light on the involved craftsmen in your area only not at the whole lot of Britain/Ireland.

 

[Mike Jackson]

Have you got your underpants on over your trousers? Because one person has had a very bad experience with a manufacturers engineers you assume that all are the same.

 

[Stree]

Dirk, very fair points. But seeing as mains water into a boiler has no requirement to serve as potable water then the threat posed is somewhat reduced. As for the flue parts, yes I identified each one on this unit because as I said I studied the schematics. Also, I had no need to interfere with any electrical equipment apart from the stop and start button, no need to go near and gas feed in, any part of the combustion cycle or any component forming the flue and exhust system. Just a mains water pipe in the slacken from a union, free a filter cartridge ( as per routine maint) clean the filter, rebuild, replace, test for leaks, and fire up the boiler once the system was refilled.
Apart from an explosion, a circular saw has more immediate and vicious lethality potential,but a boiler can be an invisible and silent killer. I readily acknowledge that.
As for "my next customer" Given the circumstances, why do you really think I would ever seek out that sort of work? It was a one off in desperation to help someone that was helpless.....

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

I thought you said boiler was installed in 2009?

And that your query was ultimately about getting the old lady out of paying these massive bills that didn't actually repair the boiler?

But it was such a long story i culd have got lost!

I will read again.

 

[lame plumber]

the real blame is with the original boiler installers, Ive been caught out in the past following on other people who I assume have carried out correct installs or services only to realise an hour or 2 later that it has been done badly or not at all, and it hits my wallet! Now I just assume the worst and go from there! sad but needs to be done more and more.

 

[Stree]

OK OK, I generalised, I know there are good guys and bad guys in every trade. I apologise to the good guys I have offended. Sorry I retract that poor value judgement. It is a pity we did not find at least one of the good guys in the 7 we encountered. As for the area? Its North Lincolnshire. Next time I will pay an engineer to come from Leeds or Ilkley, I do know and have used gas engineers there for kitchen fits.

 

[R1CKY]

There always, always seems to be some confusion on the whole "removing the case" thing. IMO removing a boiler case is fine, along as it is only a decorative case and does not form part of the boilers room seal.

OP, IIRC the Halstead has a removable front panel and below that it has two metal panels, the lower one is the access the pump, diverter, plate heat exchanger etc and the upper one is to access the combustion chamber? I can't for the life of me remember if the lower one forms part of the room seal or not. What I do know is, is that boiler has a very fragile condensate drain tube, which if broken can lead to products of combustion entering the room. It looks like a washing machine drain hose and always seem to leak.

For clarity, you mentioned you cleaned the secondary heat exchanger, do you mean the plate heat exchanger or a component in the top half of the boiler casing?

 

[Stree]

Tara,
I got all the paperwork together from her, spoke with trading standards, was compiling a presentation for them when the lady called me and said she did not want the fuss....... Her prerogative..... so it was all paid and that was that. Thank you anyway

 

[Stree]

Ricky, I dealt with the bottom half, you gave an excellent description of the component layout by the way. and I was aware of the fragility of the condensate tube and proceeded accordingly.

 

[DirksPlumbing]

Tara,
I got all the paperwork together from her, spoke with trading standards, was compiling a presentation for them when the lady called me and said she did not want the fuss....... Here prerogative..... so it was all paid and that was that. Thank you anyway

Sounds familiar, had one or two customers where I had to spend a lot of time and material to get things right and legal. Usually you will then find blank commissioning sheets or faked ones, missing invoices for the install and the lot. Wonder how.

 

[lame plumber]

Tara,
I got all the paperwork together from her, spoke with trading standards, was compiling a presentation for them when the lady called me and said she did not want the fuss....... Her prerogative..... so it was all paid and that was that. Thank you anyway

sad but old folk dont like or need the stress, well tried in your efforts to help her. More like you needed out there omho

 

[Stree]

Thank you lame plumber, kind words. I almost wish I had trained as a gas engineer instead of a wood machinist. Ah well, past working now anyway so its academic.