Cold Water Tank In Loft - Cause Of Flood Dispute?

[Mijacmad]

Having just moved into a property and discovering the central heating not functioning, after 3 months we eventually was able to get the property management to have one of their heating engineers attend. He was literally here 10mins and in the loft space for 2mins, where he stated he discovered the header tank bone dry and the ballcock jammed, which he said had freed and the water flowed again. This header tank is directly behind the larger cold-water tank, with space pretty limited.

Literally several hours after he had left, we were woken early morning to water gushing through the ceilings and basically flooding out both upstairs/downstairs. The attending called out emergency plumber stated that the flood emanated from a snapped off water direction pipe in the cold water tank, located in front of the header tank.

This has now lead to a dispute with the landlord when asking them to rectify the damages, where they are now claiming that it was purely a coincidence and wasn't snapped off, that the plastic water direction pipe had simply perished over time and fell off all by itself, leading to the water flow knocking the cold water tanks lid and being dislodged, hence the water spraying onto the ceilings. And that unfortunately it was just a pure coincidence that the plumber had attended and worked on the tank directly behind, but was not directly anything to do with him.

Now I'm not dumb, but the odd's of this being a coincidence are pretty slim. They sent one of their operations managers out, who firstly stated that the cold-water tank was at the other end of the loft and then changed his tune after me asking him to go into the loft, and then giving extra BS excuses when he came down.

I went into the loft myself and discovered the header tank right behind the much larger cold-water tank and found the old water direction pipe in the bottom of the tank and was asked by my insurance company to retain this. The beams are not immediately visible so there is no way the original gas heating engineer could have been up and down within 2 minutes and navigated around the small space/beams to work on the header tank. The bloke was 60yo 6ft+ and the effects of years of 10 pints a night taking a toll on his paunch.

I put it to the housing management to be up in the loft for such a short time and fully rectified issues that he had obviously leant over and on the cold-water tank to free the ballcock from the much lower and smaller tank directly behind it, and in the process placed pressure on the thin tank cover, snapping off the water direction pipe in the process. Again this was refused.

So I took some really good pictures of the retrieved water direction pipe, which clearly showed an area of lighter stress to the plastic where it had been forced and snapped off. They came back with, 'the darker stain area on the connection shows that this component had been perishing for some time and the lighter area is not lighter stress fracture but is probably the only remaining area it was attached to until falling off from the water pressure.

I know this a complete BS excuse given to try and wriggle out of responsibility, I don't believe the original engineer snapped this off maliciously but rather an accident. I'd appreciate any advice given and have attached one of the pictures taken of the supposed fully perished water direction pipe that decided to jump off it's connection all by itself when only in close proximity of a visiting gas heating engineer (Sarcasm).

Thanks in advance for any advice and suggestions.

 

[Roy_66]

Whatever. While he was up there he should have had a look at the big tank as well if he was a responsible kind of guy. Particularly if he rested his paunch on it. I take it the lid was not hard to remove?

I think though have to accept it's one of those things. Did the big tank have any retention on the lid?

Moral is always keep an eye on things after any work by anyone - could just be a slow leak.

Cheers,

Roy (amateur)

 

[exedon2]

Quick explanation
As a business we for around 10 years subcontracted to a specialist insurance contractor .
I always had between 2or 3 of team work for them.
As you can imagine we saw just about ever plumbing disaster possible.
Amongst them from memory at least 4 snapped of ballvalve flow diverters.
So they can go without any human intervention.
One property a unoccupied holiday home was so flooded it was totally gutted plaster chipboard floors everything.

 

[Mijacmad]

Whatever. While he was up there he should have had a look at the big tank as well if he was a responsible kind of guy. Particularly if he rested his paunch on it. I take it the lid was not hard to remove?

I think though have to accept it's one of those things. Did the big tank have any retention on the lid?

Moral is always keep an eye on things after any work by anyone - could just be a slow leak.

Cheers,

Roy (amateur)

No the lid was just a thin plastic cover so easily bent if any pressure placed on it.

 

[Mijacmad]

Quick explanation
As a business we for around 10 years subcontracted to a specialist insurance contractor .
I always had between 2or 3 of team work for them.
As you can imagine we saw just about ever plumbing disaster possible.
Amongst them from memory at least 4 snapped of ballvalve flow diverters.
So they can go without any human intervention.
One property a unoccupied holiday home was so flooded it was totally gutted plaster chipboard floors everything.

Within hours of attending would not be a big 'coincidence' though? It wasn't a slow leak but apparently it was spraying in to the air onto the insulation/ceilings, we had been there 3-months already and no sign of leak. Do you think the picture attached shows a snap or just wear & tear because the original plumber who attended to the flood stated that it was snapped off.

 

[Chuck]

Based on the photo, the clean section from 11 o'clock around to 2 o'clock seems to have failed recently and the crystalline appearance of the fracture surface suggests that the plastic was in poor condition and brittle, probably due to age and/or poor quality manufacture, i.e. 'wear and tear'. The section from 2 o'clock around to 11 o'clock as been broken for a considerable (months/years) length of time, long enough for the brown stain (oxides or other particles in the supply) to build up.

I'd agree that the clean section looks as though it has 'snapped off' recently but it could well have been the water pressure that applied the force that was the coup de grace.

So, in my opinion, the diverter has been in the process of failing since well before your plumber was in the roof. A visual inspection of it in operation would probably have shown it was spraying through the 'brown crack'.

In good condition, those things are pretty tough and I doubt you could break one in the way illustrated by accident. Unless you instructed the plumber to check the condition of the float valve as part of the job I don't think you can hold them responsible. If you want to recover for the cost of repairs due to water damage I think you'll need to make your own insurance claim.

 

[rpm]

Needs to be less emotional and more factional. Do you have the knowledge to know the difference between a fact and BS from experiance in plumbing.

 

[WC1]

From what I can see, it failed suddenly and catastrophically a while after the engineer was in the vicinity.
I don't see how this can be clearly laid at the feet of the engy.

 

[Mijacmad]

Needs to be less emotional and more factional. Do you have the knowledge to know the difference between a fact and BS from experiance in plumbing.

I know a BS'er regardless of their profession, it was the the same engineer who completed the original gas heating safety check before moving in - an in-house jobby. Who left the heating system non-functional, so by the law of averages the bloke is obviously a cowboy. I understand you have to protect your profession, but no flood issue for 3 months and then within hours of him attending and then a full-on flood is a pretty hard reach to suggest being 'emotional'.

 

[Mijacmad]

From what I can see, it failed suddenly and catastrophically a while after the engineer was in the vicinity.
I don't see how this can be clearly laid at the feet of the engy.

A while? It was within a couple of hours and then a sudden build up of gushing water from the ceilings and the overflow outside. That's no coincidence when there had been 3-months of flood free days, then it occurs within a few hours of him being in the loft and working on a tank an inch behind the culprit. Nevermind, I was asking for an opinion on the component, which I understood can snap off very easily so sudden pressure on the tank top could have quite easily been at fault.

 

[Mijacmad]

Based on the photo, the clean section from 11 o'clock around to 2 o'clock seems to have failed recently and the crystalline appearance of the fracture surface suggests that the plastic was in poor condition and brittle, probably due to age and/or poor quality manufacture, i.e. 'wear and tear'. The section from 2 o'clock around to 11 o'clock as been broken for a considerable (months/years) length of time, long enough for the brown stain (oxides or other particles in the supply) to build up.

I'd agree that the clean section looks as though it has 'snapped off' recently but it could well have been the water pressure that applied the force that was the coup de grace.

So, in my opinion, the diverter has been in the process of failing since well before your plumber was in the roof. A visual inspection of it in operation would probably have shown it was spraying through the 'brown crack'.

In good condition, those things are pretty tough and I doubt you could break one in the way illustrated by accident. Unless you instructed the plumber to check the condition of the float valve as part of the job I don't think you can hold them responsible. If you want to recover for the cost of repairs due to water damage I think you'll need to make your own insurance claim.

Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated, The slum-landlord has now agreed to cover the damages, and probably because it was something that should have been noticed 3 months prior when the same inhouse engineer completed a safety check of the heating system. Ironically, their in-house electrician also left an arcing light fitting, stuck together with gaffer tape during that safety inspection too. Fire and flood within 3-months, I'm not that unlucky.

 

[JC22024]

Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated, The slum-landlord has now agreed to cover the damages, and probably because it was something that should have been noticed 3 months prior when the same inhouse engineer completed a safety check of the heating system. Ironically, their in-house electrician also left an arcing light fitting, stuck together with gaffer tape during that safety inspection too. Fire and flood within 3-months, I'm not that unlucky.

Fair dues to your landlord for taking the hit and paying for repairs.

Rubbish happens and its not necessarily anyones fault.... it seems some people need someone to blame. If only I could blame someone else for any time someting fails or gets damaged in my house.

And if I had a landlord - and he paid for repairs - HAPPY DAYS!!!!!

 

[Mijacmad]

Fair dues to your landlord for taking the hit and paying for repairs.

Rubbish happens and its not necessarily anyones fault.... it seems some people need someone to blame. If only I could blame someone else for any time someting fails or gets damaged in my house.

And if I had a landlord - and he paid for repairs - HAPPY DAYS!!!!!

Fair dues nothing, by UK law it is their responsibility when you rent a property and they have 30k properties so they shouldn't have argued the point, it was their fault and their plumber because neither were doing their jobs properly. As Roy stated earlier, any responsible plumber should have checked this on one of several occasions he inspected the whole system and noticed if there was an issue, and as someone kindly explained the deterioration, I can now ascertain he obviously knocked the part on its last legs while up there, even though it could have failed several months later on it's own. The cause - lazy klutz of a plumber.

Thanks all.

 

[JC22024]

Fair dues nothing, by UK law it is their responsibility when you rent a property and they have 30k properties so they shouldn't have argued the point, it was their fault and their plumber because neither were doing their jobs properly. As Roy stated earlier, any responsible plumber should have checked this on one of several occasions he inspected the whole system and noticed if there was an issue, and as someone kindly explained the deterioration, I can now ascertain he obviously knocked the part on its last legs while up there, even though it could have failed several months later on it's own. The cause - lazy klutz of a plumber.

Thanks all.

Ah OK I see. I thought it was a private landlord when you said "slum Landord" before but actually they own 30k properties.

 

[Mijacmad]

Ah OK I see. I thought it was a private landlord when you said "slum Landord" before but actually they own 30k properties.

Slum landlord on a large scale. Social Housing.