Bathroom Renovation Concerns, Help Please!

[pw75]

Hi

I have recently employed a property development firm to completely renovate my bathroom. It is a very long story but I have summarised my growing concerns below:

• Initially they were fine until I signed up and paid 50% deposit.
• Since then they have been really poor with communication and very rarely reply back to my emails/texts and when they do it never actually answers all my queries.
• They kept stating an electrician would come out before works started for an assessment and he never turned up and they have never clarified why.
• Their supplier for the bathroom suite stated our choices were in budget then the quote can back 32% over budget.
• They have now this week started work and I am very concerned with their behaviour as I don't have any expertise to check their handy work at the moment but the mess and some damage they have left is concerning.
• We put our own carpet protection down and they stated they would be with us at 9 a.m. and turned up at 12 noon and just before turning up stated that they needed a large space for all their tools to be stored in the house, we only have a small terraced house so we accommodated where possible and they put carpet protection down in our spare bedroom.
• The next day they stated they would arrive between 8 a.m. - 9 a.m. and arrived 11:30 a.m. with no explanation.
• The 2nd day (yesterday) was the most concerning as they have caused some minor paint damage in our spare bedroom and our hallway/stairs/landing. They have taken over the whole spare bedroom without us giving them permission and not put carpet protection down in those new areas. They have dumped the tiles/grout/plaster/adhesive/whole bathroom suite in our house even though it is nowhere near ready for them to use/install yet. They have left mess everywhere and never cleaned up and some of the plaster bags were split and leaking on the floor (which was protected) but all you could smell in the air when I came home was plaster and they just left the bags leaking.
• They come late (so far never before 11:30 a.m.) and have never stayed beyond 4:30 p.m. yet.
• One of their labourers allegedly got a minor electric shock and they now want us to pay their electrician for an extended check which I completely understand but don't trust if their concerns are genuine.

They are checkatrade registered, Which registered, and trading standards registered and have very good reviews on those websites which is what we went on. However I have checked the terms and conditions for each of these sites regarding a whole multitude of areas they have not adhered to what they are supposed to regarding when they are attending, deposit being protected, treating us and our home with respect, cancellation notices, amending quotes, etc.

I am at the point now where I am seriously stressed and concerned and wondered if anyone could give any advice or share experiences to help us?

Thanks

 

[A1P]

As described, this does not seem to demonstrate good practice in a number of ways.I would be concerned about the future of the job after such a poor start.I am interested in the point you made about sending out an electrician to assess the job and him not turning up.You then have someone getting a minor shock and wanting you to pay for an additional check.would this be the same electrician who didn't turn up,no explanation?!!!The bathroom fitments cost changing is not good.You are clearly having doubts about this job, but having paid 50% up front and signed a contract it looks like you might have to make the best of it.I don't know if you have anyone who can assist you as no one like a confrontation.I would want to sit down with whoever is in charge of this project,state clearly your concerns,remind them clearly that you are the customer and you expect yourself and the property to be treated with respect.

Another interesting thing coming out of your post is that they are registered and supposedly verified by various organisations.People are asked to believe in this and use it as a basis for giving work.Like a lot of people on here I belong to none of these and I am happy to give checkable references and allow my work to be seen.Good luck and keep in touch.

 

[oz-plumber]

I would be taking photo's of all the work done that won't be visible after the bathroom has been completed.

I would also question why the work doesn't start until midday.
I bet they turn up work for a bit and have lunch.
You're getting about 4 hours of productivity a day.

I would assume these guys are subbies - no one could afford to have them on wages.
Ask that question also - employees or sub-contractors.

If sub-contractors - ask who provides the warranty on works done.
( I bet it's not the company you employed to do the work )

 

[pw75]

Thank you for the replies.

I did have a good chat with the owner of the company who is my main contact and I explained all my concerns. He was very approachable and did apologise and gave me some explanations that have put my mind better at ease.

The electrician has come out now and the minor electric shock was due to previous owners of the property having put the earth wire on a painted pipe and obviously paint doesn't conduct so the electrician moved it to the copper part of the pipe. The electrician seemed very good and was very chatty and explained a lot of stuff to us. He has now fitted the lights and the extractor fan and just has a few more bits to do later this week.

I have taken photos of the concerns I have so far but the actual workmanship is a bit more difficult as a novice to understand if there should be concerns with what I am seeing. Nothing obvious looks a problem.

The only subbie is the electrician as the other staff are employed via the company direct. The issue appears to have been that they have had a big job overrun and didn't tell me so when they indicated they were coming to see us they were actually going to the other place and finishing up.

They have turned up early today and it appears the other job has now finished so hopefully we will be getting value for money now.

The 12 month guarantee we have is direct with the company based on the quote given.

At the moment I'm much more confident with the company due to clear the air talks so just hope that better practices now occur. They do seem to be on track time wise so I hope the issues we have had have been teething problems.

Just wanted to say thanks for the comments as it does make a difference when you are going through these problems to have people commenting and giving their opinions and help.

 

[A1P]

I am glad the situation is not as bleak as it appeared and that you are feeling more comfortable about the situation.It would seem that poor communication/organisation has been a major issue.I am glad you followed my advice and sat down with the person in charge.Don't be afraid to show interest in the job and ask Q's without being a 'busybody'.
I have found it a good idea on bigger/more complicated jobs that at the first meeting prior to quoting, I spend as long as needed explaining in detail approx.time required,what is possible,various options etc.The quote is based on this and customers know what they are getting for their money.Anything which crops up during the work is dealt with.This makes the job much easier for both parties.
On specifics,did you resolve the additional 30% cost and get them to be as tidy as possible.Glad the electrical problem was resolved easily.Without hopefully not worrying you further.Tiling will be the key to how your bathroom looks.There is the idea among non-tilers and builders of 'How hard can it be to stick a tile on a wall?' There is a whole tilers forum devoted to this skill and the many examples of bad tiling submitted by disappointed customers.Briefly no PVA before tilling ,no dot and dabbing when tiling.Hope all goes well.

 

[pw75]

Yeah the lack of communication seems to have been the main concern and he did admit that they are very de-sensitized when it comes to these jobs and the effects it can have on the customer. As we haven't had much work done previously I think our lack of previous experience has also had an impact.

I think as we are quite 'nervous' customers we really just needed some care and attention which hopefully now we will get.

With regards to the extra costs on the bathroom suite the provider couldn't offer any deal other than we downgraded components which we didn't want to do as had planned everything out on what we had chosen. The contractor has agreed to provide the extractor fan free of charge to bring the cost down a bit so it is a least nearer to what our budget was. I am unhappy with the provider as we made it clear our budget wasn't really negotiable.

Yeah I'm hopeful with the tiling as they do seem to be very conscientious at least with their workmanship even if at times their cleanliness to other parts of the house hasn't been to my standards. So far in the tiling regards they have said all the right things so time will tell.

Thank you for replying further it does help especially as you are a professional yourself.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Did the spark give you a reason why electricity was going to earth (normally there's a fault) as make sure hes qulified ask for his card (like the gas safe card to show he's qulified)

Any chance of a few pics ?

 

[pw75]

I'm not entirely sure but they were doing a lot of work with the electrics at the time and were getting them all ready for the electrician and taking out the old electric shower, etc.

I haven't got any pics of that unfortunately and I haven't seen any qualifications but he does work full time as an electrician for another firm.

An update on a slightly different subject is that we are going to have to pay out more as when they have taken the flooring up some of the old pipes (which look original to the property) are weeping so they have recommended they are replaced with plastic pipes as a precaution (these are the hot/cold water pipes). They have also recommended that new flooring is put down as the original is so uneven.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I'm not entirely sure but they were doing a lot of work with the electrics at the time and were getting them all ready for the electrician and taking out the old electric shower, etc.

I haven't got any pics of that unfortunately and I haven't seen any qualifications but he does work full time as an electrician for another firm.

An update on a slightly different subject is that we are going to have to pay out more as when they have taken the flooring up some of the old pipes (which look original to the property) are weeping so they have recommended they are replaced with plastic pipes as a precaution (these are the hot/cold water pipes). They have also recommended that new flooring is put down as the original is so uneven.

Get them to replace in copper and not plastic and tbh all there work should be in copper

 

[pw75]

From speaking to them they have said that most things are now plastic as it is safer and they are adamant that this is the best way forward to make sure that the piping is secure and safe.

Hard for me to insist any further really, do you think that plastic will be safe though?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

From speaking to them they have said that most things are now plastic as it is safer and they are adamant that this is the best way forward to make sure that the piping is secure and safe.

Hard for me to insist any further really, do you think that plastic will be safe though?

Safer no and as long as they do it properly and use all the fittings and inserts and won't rub on anything should be ok

 

[rpm]

If it helps reduce your stress level, most if not all new housing estates are done in plastic nowadays.

Not saying it`s right or wrong way as don`t want to enter the Plastic v Copper argument.

 

[pw75]

Thanks for the reply, they seem to be fitting everything so it looks ok but obviously I'm no expert.

Hopefully it will make those pipes secure and updated and then they are going to put something like marine ply down with levelling solution or something to get the floor as level as possible so that the floor tiles will look as good as they can get them.

 

[pw75]

Thanks rpm, our builders were adamant that they feel plastic is now the done thing and they feel is better. I guess as per ShaunCorbs the main thing is that it is all fitted properly.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thanks for the reply, they seem to be fitting everything so it looks ok but obviously I'm no expert.

Hopefully it will make those pipes secure and updated and then they are going to put something like marine ply down with levelling solution or something to get the floor as level as possible so that the floor tiles will look as good as they can get them.

Floor tiles upstairs if so hope they put a no cracking matting down before tiles

 

[Riley]

Builders always say that plastic is the way forward thus proving that they are not plumbers. Once again it would appear that communication has been the stumbling block here . I always hate it when a customer feels they can't approach me and likewise I don't like it when a customer ignores my information requests as it can make the whole process a lot slower and cause a lot of unnecessary bad feeling. I always invite my customers to ask questions and raise any queries that they might have no matter how small. I basically don't want to leave myself open to anyone having fault or thinking that I haven't told them something

 

[pw75]

Yeah they have mentioned about what they are going to do to avoid any cracking tiles, not sure on the specifics but they have made it clear that something like that is going down.

The guy working on the pipes is a plumber by trade and does feel that the plastic is the way forward.

Hopefully getting this work done secures our pipes and keeps it all safe and the tiles will go down nice and safely too.

Thank you for all the comments.

 

[Riley]

To be fair plastic has its uses no plumber worth his salt would say it's preferential

 

[pw75]

They have shown me the piping and it all looks fine but again I'm no expert. My main concern is really just making sure the piping is secure and no leaks or weeps. I'll keep people updated, thank you again for all comments and help.

 

[Ms M]

Hi pw75

I am in the same boat as you having just had a new bathroom done and now they are doing the kitchen and living room.

They don't put much coverings down and the house is so dusty. It's been mainly left to me to cover things up. I have been worrying about a lot of the things that they have done. They have cracked on at such a pace that you feel as if some things aren't being done properly. However as we can't watch over them every minute we must try and trust them.

As the folks in the trade have said they don't always see things from the customer's viewpoint. I know I have been a nag at times but like you I have never taken on big projects like this and as it's so stressfull I need reassurance about what's happening. It's understandable though that the guys just want to get the job done as they have other customers waiting and may therefore not notice the details like us.

The fitters were right though that the bathroom will look good at the end, which it does! I hope you will be able to say the same soon.

 

[Riley]

Like the above. Please please please please don't look over their shoulder all day long. Nothing winds up contractors more and you will find things are rushed and corners cut in order to get out quick to stop you doing it. You must have some faith in them as you checked their reviews and accepted their quote so let them do their job. Not everyone works the same and as you keep saying you are not an expert have faith that they are. If you have concerns then make a snag list.

 

[pw75]

Hi Ms M

It's nice to hear someone else's experience's although obviously I don't wish you had to go through it.

Yeah we put our own covering down and at the time I thought it was overkill but now if I had to go back I would go even heavier on the carpet protection.

I am disappointed with all the marks as I do think I will be touching up paint work for a few hours. I am very tidy and conscientious so it is painful going through this!

I hope it does all work out ok as I need it to have been worth it!

 

[pw75]

Yeah I certainly have given them space and been as unobtrusive as possible so I'm happy or happier at least to trust them.

Hopefully all will work out well.

 

[Riley]

I hope you will be happy

 

[jonnyswamp]

Hope it all turns out great for you and it's what you expect
As for the copper versus plastic debate, if the plumber is altering the layout of the bathroom and has to alter pipe runs under the floor, he may not want to notch joists and prefer to drill through them. As copper can't be threaded easily without adding loads of joints, this may be the better option

 

[PlumbBobBob]

you could mention the paint marks to the boss, he may get them repaired as a gesture of goodwill. I know I would.

 

[pw75]

From what I have seen the pipe repairs have followed the same route but they do go over one of the main joists. I can see copper vs plastic is a bit explosive of a debate! To be honest I just want the pipes secure, no leaks or weeps (especially as they have now put down external marine ply for the floor boards and put the levelling solution down and will now put tiles down today I think).

Unfortunately I am at work today but the boss is sitting down with my partner to work out the new costs and he did indicate (although only verbally) that he would offer me some form of deal/compensation for the distress he knows he has caused. I will ask her to mention about the marks as literally our small spare bedroom is half full of their tools. I wouldn't mind but me being me I would have placed carpet protection down in the centre of the room away from walls for all their tools to go but they have pushed it all against one wall.

Many thanks again for so many responses and the support and suggestions.

 

[pw75]

Just an update, came home yesterday, walked into our bedroom and they have drilled two holes right through from the bathroom to the bedroom! Looks like they were drilling in the boxing in wood and have just drilled too far.

I spoke to the boss and they have confirmed they will repair and make good but yet another mistake that again makes me question their competency.

 

[A1P]

I has been quiet for a few days,hope this is a good sign.Assessing this as a whole ,it has been interesting to have the importance of communication with the customer reinforced.It also demonstrates that even doing checks on a tradesman/company,this one had 3,is not a certain way to get a trouble free,quality job.I hope you have been able to negotiate on the final price as was promised.I still find the raising of the price of materials unacceptable after being agreed.Then there is the matter of how the work was carried out.Even if you are reasonably happy with the final outcome,do not fall soft.It would be interesting to know how it all went.

 

[Radioman]

Further to the above and before you pay the balance. The consumer act changed in Oct 2015, I suggest you bone up on it and make your contractor aware that you are aware of your rights and his liability which now stretches to 6 years not 12 months. On the subject of liability, ask your contractor for a hard copy of his public liability insurance and make sure it covers works carried out by employees and sub contractors, phone the insurance company and make sure it is still valid. To be covered by the contractors insurance they must be on PAYE not self employed. If SE they must each have PLI. Your sparks must be Part P self certifying which means he has the authority to issue a Part P building regulation certificate in his own name or in the name of his company. If he is not then you will need to get local building controls in now before the jobs done. It is a criminal act to work on a wet room without that certificate being issued. Don't be fobbed off, this is serious. Also take photos of the substructure before tiling. All substructure in wet areas must be waterproof. Plaster board and plywood is not enough. It is most important that you understand that the first 30 days and 6 months are very important to your rights.

I have just had to help an acquaintance after a so called bathroom expert ruined their property. They where checktrade etc. Ended up in court and the so called electrician got a suspended sentence.

 

[pw75]

Thank you for the further comments, in general things have got worse unfortunately to the point where me and the owner have pretty much had a communication breakdown.

The price has remained the same but they have agreed to put right any damage so we will see. I am unsure on the certificates and at the moment I am just hoping they complete the works to an acceptable standard as any further probing by me directly with them I think is going to cause big problems. As far as I am aware all is waterproof, they did put external marine ply down on the floor and stated that they filled and waterproofed all the floor before putting the levelling compound down. Unfortunately taking photos has proved a bit difficult as we haven't always had that opportunity.

I probably had the most worrying phone call I have ever had with the owner when he stated they would arrive at 10:30 then texted to say 11:30 then by 13:30 hadn't turned up. I sent him a polite but firm text explaining that I wasn't happy and that this wasn't the first time we had issues with their timekeeping and he effectively tore into me stating that he runs a successful business and I have to work around him, any times he gives are not guaranteed and I will need to accept that, I'm too controlling, I should give them a key to the property and not look at the bathroom until it is complete then I wouldn't moan so much, if he has an emergency he will prioritise that over us and I have to accept that, etc. In essence it was like he was doing me a favour not taking £000's of pounds off me for work I have paid for.

I tried to explain my side but he wasn't happy and stated that the work would be completed on the agreed date and whatever times they wanted to work they would and as long as they completed the work I should accept it and stop complaining. I tried to explain that I was simply making him clear that when I pay for a service and get given a time of arrival I expect that time to be adhered to (within reason) and if not to be notified. He felt that I was dictating when he had to be at my property even though it was him giving me the times!

To be honest the whole ordeal has made me feel really ill and I am really surprised that someone who is accredited on so many levels can treat me, my family, and my home in such a disparaging manner. I have spoken to Which as he is a trusted trader and they have confirmed that they feel the treatment is unacceptable and have recommended I allow them to complete the works, make sure it is to an acceptable standard, and then consider a complaint. Funnily enough on the checkatrade website one of the guarantees the traders have to sign up for is 'Keep appointments and arrive on time (calling in advance if they need to reschedule)' so maybe he has forgotten that!

They have also left a heap of rubbish outside the property for about a week now and every time we remind them to remove it they just say they will tomorrow and never do.

 

[oz-plumber]

Bar leaving the rubbish at the front of your property until the job is finished, I find that the rest of your ordeal is totally unacceptable.

Sometimes late starts are unavoidable, but I would consider 10;30 am a very late start.
As for 13;30 - may as well not even turn up.

Sounds like he has a lot of issues / problems elsewhere and you're at the bottom of his list of priorities - not a good situation for you to be in.

Post some pics of the work?

As for final payment - play the game he is playing with you.

 

[pw75]

Yeah the rubbish outside we have only mentioned twice to him due to the fact that it is so much and it is very near and spilling onto the main pathway on our road and I'm just concerned someone will trip over or hurt themselves as we get a lot of kids playing about in our close. It isn't a major issue as long as they do take it when the work is completed.

We had a couple of 8:30 a.m. starts and everything else really has been after 10:30 and nearer midday. As long as the work is completed fair enough but my big concerns have been that he gives times and very rarely meets them then effectively blames me for trying to get him to stick to the times he has given me.

I have tried to be reasonable but when I picked this firm I done a lot of research and he stated to me he employs 5 teams of 5 bathroom specialists so I felt that it was a big enough firm to cope with the ebb and flow of work projects, emergencies, etc without it compromising our work. However the more I have worked with them the more I get the impression it is him and 2 other people and a sub contracted electrician, I really do not believe he has the other staff. I may be wrong but every single issue they have had or call out has gone via the people working on our project so it makes me suspicious.

Regarding final payment I am trying to be reasonable and to be honest as long as we get the bathroom we want and any damage is fairly repaired then I will pay. However I am seriously considering if anything further goes wrong or things that are promised don't happen then I think I will have to consider complaints via the accreditations he has as I am so disappointed and stressed at his behaviour towards me and the project.

Hopefully the final work will be good but just another small example of my concerns are that my partner noticed that after they had connected the bath filler it was evident the filler had damage to it that was relatively easy to see. Yet he fitted it and only then did they start putting protective covers over it. Only by us pointing it out has it been agreed the filler will be taken off and replaced. He has agreed to this so fair enough but he must have seen it when fitting it.

I'll try to get some pics if I can, thanks for all the replies.

 

[Radioman]

Unfortunately this is a story I have heard all to often. He sounds like a real bully boy. To employ that many people on PAYE, say 10 or 15, the turnover would need to be in the hundreds of thousands. What he does is bring in self employed sub contractors as and when he needs them which means he cannot guarantee any labour, such as a tiler or plasterer turning up on time. Easy enough to check staff and turnover via company house if he is ltd. I would also,watch the vat content on the final bill, check the vat number with HMRC. I predict that once you have paid in full you will never see him again so be prepared for that. Perhaps you could give us a complete break down of what is being fitted so we can tell you if it is compatible and legal with your existing boiler and supplies.

How does he plan to get the waste away? Hopefully with a licensed waste carrier and not in the first available hedge!

Whatever you do don't hand over final monies until you have the Part P cert, and you are sure works are completed and damage repaired. What you could do is employ a surveyor to inspect the completed work prior to paying. If he says he belongs to trade bodies such as the Federation of Master Builders etc you could get them involved too.

 

[pw75]

Today should be completion day and yesterday seemed to go better and there didn't appear to be so many concerns. I did contact companies house but they stated they do not require firms to record how many employees they have only who is the owner and a secretary of the business. To be honest as the work is now coming to a close it is a bit immaterial I guess but I really done my research and worked on what was told me to try to avoid some of the issues I have had.

I'm relatively sure the waste will be got rid of legally as they do seem a reputable company on one level but then when I have a range of concerns and the way things have worked I do question things. Anyway they have took a good 50% of the waste from outside our property and the last of it will go today fingers crossed.

With regards to the fittings I only really know the basics like bath, extractor fan, sink, vanity unit, etc. To be fair he has talked through a range of things he has done and why and how he has made everything to current standards but without being an expert I just have to judge him on his word.

Hopefully all will be completed today and on the quote it does state that the electrics will be completed to the '17th edition electrical installation standards'.

I think the best I can do is get the works completed and then work from there, hopefully everything will be fine but if not may then consider next steps.

Many thanks for all the advice and replies.