Baffled by this system? Can't see a pump...

[OGBUzzard]

and the cylinder is on the same level as the bathroom. (2 bed flat all one floor). Am I being foolish or does the cylinder not always have to have a pump to feed hot taps? I'm sorting out the wiring with a 10 block connector strip but every wiring diagram has a pump and a boiler connection...? All i can do is wire it up with whats there and i cant see a pump...Any ideas?

 

[jtsplumbing]

Not quite understanding what you are trying to ask, No the cylinder does not need a pump to feed hot taps ! what sort of cylinder have you got ? is there a cold water tank in loft ?

 

[tamz]

I think you are out your depth here

 

[OGBUzzard]

There is a small tank directly above the cylinder which feeds it. Are you saying that the gravity from that tank pushes the hot water out the cylinder? I'm not an expert on wiring timers etc. The system seems to have been altered a few times and the "wiring centre" is an absolute state. So can I just leave out the pump connection from what the wiring diagram for the timer shows?

 

[OGBUzzard]

I think you are out your depth here

Hahaha I think you're right but I've got my waders on.

 

[galaxy_plumbing]

what do you want to do?

 

[jtsplumbing]

Has this flat got heating ? if so there will be a pump, What are you trying to wire up, a wiring centre points to a heating system, what gets the water hot ? are you just trying to fit a timer for the immersion heater , More information would be useful. What are you trying to do ???

 

[OGBUzzard]

what do want to do?

I want to re wire it all back up. They have a cylinder stat, a 3 port valve, a Honeywell st9400c, a room stat and a vaillant ecotec plus 612 r1. And seemingly no hot water pump

 

[OGBUzzard]

Has this flat got heating ? if so there will be a pump, What are you trying to wire up, a wiring centre points to a heating system, what gets the water hot ? are you just trying to fit a timer for the immersion heater , More information would be useful. What are you trying to do ???

Yes heating is done by the vaillant the pump in there does the heating but the hot water is done by cylinder.

 

[OGBUzzard]

No not trying to wire immersion into timer mate just wire everything back up more neatly.

 

[E4gas]

Are you a sparky or plumber

 

[galaxy_plumbing]

just wire what you have there. your 3-port valve switches between your hot water and heating and pump is in the boiler

 

[E4gas]

612 or R1

 

[jtsplumbing]

Ok, so you have a system boiler, the pump is inside the boiler, this will supply both the heating & hot water, if your not very good with wiring, probably better to leave it alone B4 you do some damage, was there a problem with the system B4 you started pulling all the wiring out ? is there a problem with the hot water from the taps, why are you messing around with something that you seem to know very little about, you do know its 240 volts you are playing with ! Please if you are uncertain leave it alone.

 

[Reg Man]

Grave concerns that if you don't understand the basics you could be dealing with something that will bite you on the bum.

 

[OGBUzzard]

Guys don't worry I've worked as a sparkys mate before I have a fluke tester and a live wand too. I'm perfectly safe just not an expert at wiring centres. Thanks for your replies though. S noo what does the 3 port valve do if the boiler switches between heating and hot water? Essentially the question I was originally asking is why in all the wiring diagrams I look at does it have a pump in the system, and can I just omit it and connect up everything else.?

 

[galaxy_plumbing]

maybe have a look at y-plan wiring, but be careful

 

[jtsplumbing]

In answer to your question, you are looking at the wrong wiring diagram, you need to understand how the system works B4 you start messing around with it, and working as a sparky's mate means nothing, a lot of electricians cant wire up a heating system.

 

[Reg Man]

Guys don't worry I've worked as a sparkys mate before I have a fluke tester and a live wand too. I'm perfectly safe just not an expert at wiring centres. Thanks for your replies though. S noo what does the 3 port valve do if the boiler switches between heating and hot water? Essentially the question I was originally asking is why in all the wiring diagrams I look at does it have a pump in the system, and can I just omit it and connect up everything else.?

Because all modern day heating systems are fully pumped.

 

[OGBUzzard]

Thanks guys yes it is a y plan. While they were having plastering done in the area where the old wiring centre was I wired the boiler up with direct feed from a temp plug with flex on a 3a fuse. I switched the now powerless motor to open and they have been heating up hot water by switching heating on (all rads are off at valves) for an hour or so. I thought that the cylinder acts as another radiator in the system and it seems to be working for them. So at the moment they have all or nothing but at least they can have hot water for next 48 hrs or so..

 

[OGBUzzard]

In answer to your question, you are looking at the wrong wiring diagram, you need to understand how the system works B4 you start messing around with it, and working as a sparky's mate means nothing, a lot of electricians cant wire up a heating system.

Hi mate I'm looking at the Honeywell wiring diagram for the timer unit. According to all the bits in the cupboard its a y plan but without a pump. Every diagram in the guide has a pump included. So what I'm thinking is do I just wire it all back up according to this y plan diagram but just omit the pump from it?

 

[OGBUzzard]

When I said I worked as a sparkys mate I was just saying that I'm not going to blow everything up the fuse has been removed from the spur feeding the wiring centre. Not saying I'm an expert at wiring. That's why I'm looking for the help of an expert because I've not been able to find the answer I need so far...

 

[Reg Man]

Pump integral to the boiler?

 

[OGBUzzard]

No the pump that is in all the diagrams which isn't here in this system I'm working on

 

[Reg Man]

A Y plan will not work without a pump.

 

[OGBUzzard]

Well I was told the boiler pumped the hot water. That's the bit I didn't get. So the water is fed back to the boiler after the cylinder then pumped to the taps? Didn't realise it worked like that. Only reason I said it was a y plan is because that's all the parts that are here minus the pump. There is a boiler, a 3 port valve, a room stat, a cylinder stat, and a supply feed for power on a spur.

 

[Reg Man]

Do you know what an indirect system is?

 

[stevetheplumber]

before you put the fuse back in you should go and buy a packet of fuses about a hundred should do

 

[Crinkmeister]

I'm confused....

 

[OGBUzzard]

Do you know what an indirect system is?

Well its system that's fed off a tank isn't it? There is an immersion but its only there as a backup. A direct system is fed off the water main isn't it?

 

[Reg Man]

Well its system that's fed off a tank isn't it? There is an immersion but its only there as a backup. A direct system is fed off the water main isn't it?

I don't want to sound unhelpful, but you should take note of post 2 from Tamz. You obviously do not have enough experience to be carrying out this project; get a qualified person in to help you out.

 

[jtsplumbing]

I don't want to sound unhelpful, but you should take note of post 2 from Tamz. You obviously do not have enough experience to be carrying out this project; get a qualified person in to help you out.

Reg Man He's been told more than once that the pump is in the boiler, he seems to think that the pump is to supply water to the hot taps, (Must have fitted a shower pump in the past) knows nothing about heating systems or how to wire them, from what he is saying is only experience with electrics he as had, is carrying the electrician's tool bag, this guy is going to either blow the system or electrocute someone.

 

[OGBUzzard]

Yep one of my colleagues is coming down to the job in a few days he's ex British gas was with them for 20 years so he'll be able to sort it just thought I'd ask about whether the pump was needed. I will still wire it up as it was because it was working fine before. Thanks anyway guys.

 

[Howsie]

I wouldn't bet on it

 

[PlumbBobBob]

I wouldn't bet on it

neither would i :dizzy2:

 

[jtsplumbing]

Yep one of my colleagues is coming down to the job in a few days he's ex British gas was with them for 20 years so he'll be able to sort it just thought I'd ask about whether the pump was needed. I will still wire it up as it was because it was working fine before. Thanks anyway guys.

This will be fun ex BG & a pretend electrician ! do you want them in your house ?? :willy_nilly:

 

[ManchesterGas]

Please do not mess with things like this. It may only be electrics to you but electric can very easily kill someone, and you could easily kill someone too. You clearly do not know what you are doing.

 

[OGBUzzard]

Listen you lot need to calm down I'm doing a favour for someone because they're getting the cupboard re plastered where the wiring centre was. I appreciate your concern but I do know what I'm doing I'm just putting it back how it was. No one is going to get hurt. I've put it back this morning while on the phone to my colleague and it all works fine. The old British gas apprenticeships were actually very good and two of the best plumbers I know have worked for British gas when they started out. its like Lego really I wasn't in college the day they did wiring centres. All I wanted to know was should there be a pump in the system... I'm not a pretend electrician and I don't really appreciate all the insults. This always happens in forums people getting lemon cos they're hiding behind a computer screen. Anyway thanks for all the really really useful advice and help still no one able to answer the pretty simple question. Next time I won't bother. Jeez

 

[ManchesterGas]

If you are not a pretend electrician then you must be qualified. If it was simple to you then you wouldn't be asking!

It could still work but you have just lived up the cylinder. Things like this have happened, hence why you shouldn't touch it if you have issues. Go on a free course and find out how it all works before you mess in soneones house.

There are many people that bodge because a little knowledge is dangerous. You should see some of the gas jobs we come across because people think that they know what they are doing and clearly dont. You can't see most electricity, you can't see carbon monoxide. We are only looking out for your back.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Mate you have been told several times where the pump is, so you have had the answer to your question, and clearly you didn't understand what you were being told, so that is why you were getting sarcastic replies .

 

[Masood]

Listen you lot need to calm down I'm doing a favour for someone because they're getting the cupboard re plastered where the wiring centre was. I appreciate your concern but I do know what I'm doing I'm just putting it back how it was. No one is going to get hurt. I've put it back this morning while on the phone to my colleague and it all works fine. The old British gas apprenticeships were actually very good and two of the best plumbers I know have worked for British gas when they started out. its like Lego really I wasn't in college the day they did wiring centres. All I wanted to know was should there be a pump in the system... I'm not a pretend electrician and I don't really appreciate all the insults. This always happens in forums people getting lemon cos they're hiding behind a computer screen. Anyway thanks for all the really really useful advice and help still no one able to answer the pretty simple question. Next time I won't bother. Jeez

Mate, your question was answered three or four times. The pump is inside the boiler. You apparently don't know the difference between a shower pump and a central heating pump, nor between a direct and indirect cylinder. These are alarmingly simple things that anyone working even on the fringes of heating systems should know. Are you surprised that people were concerned about your ability to do the work safely?

 

[jtsplumbing]

If you are not a pretend electrician then you must be qualified. If it was simple to you then you wouldn't be asking!

It could still work but you have just lived up the cylinder. Things like this have happened, hence why you shouldn't touch it if you have issues. Go on a free course and find out how it all works before you mess in soneones house.

There are many people that bodge because a little knowledge is dangerous. You should see some of the gas jobs we come across because people think that they know what they are doing and clearly dont. You can't see most electricity, you can't see carbon monoxide. We are only looking out for your back.

But some people wont listen, they think they know best ! probably been looking on u'tube

 

[SimonG]

This one is very simple, if you don't know, then don't play. Fine, you might know a bit about electrics, but that won't help you in this. I know a couple of sparks who've been in the trade for years but won't wire heating systems.

Won't be much of a favour if you fry the pcb on the boiler.

 

[OGBUzzard]

Its done. Everything's working fine. Thanks for all the really useful advice and help. Turns out its just like Lego. As I said before I wasn't in college the day they did wiring centres. No ones hurt no need to call the police everyone can relax.

 

[Reg Man]

Glad you got through this, but you do worry me. Did all your continuity checks ZE, ZS PFC work out ok?

 

[SimonG]

Glad you got through this, but you do worry me. Did all your continuity checks ZE, ZS PFC work out ok?

Trouble is that he didn't worry himself. Still what's the 'absolute' worst that could happen. A short burns the house down and kills somebody. Still if that happens he won't do it again.

 

[OGBUzzard]

I'm not an electrician so no I didn't but the sparky on their job will be doing all that. I'll PM all of you a photo of the test results then you may finally be able to sleep. It really isn't a big deal, I've seen some plumbers out there that can't spell and look like the missing link, and they seem to be able to wire it up ok. Being a plumber doesn't require MENSA membership and some of you need to pull yourselves out of your own arses. Wages for plumbing these days are bloody terrible anyway I don't envy you. I do my own plumbing and for friends and family so they don't get ripped off by jumped up labourers with a spanner. I'm a refurb contractor and I know enough about every trade not to get mugged off.

 

[Destroyer2813]

Ah that explains everything you know a little of every trade and not a lot about all of them then if you can't differentiate between systems

 

[OGBUzzard]

HAHAHAHA I was the one answering my own questions here, no one helped one bit. I told you lot it was a y plan. I worked that out because of the components in the system, and the fact it had a v4703 mid pos valve. All I wanted to know was whether every system needs a pump, I thought it might have been under their floor or something. I still didn't get the answer, someone even said "a y plan won't work without a pump". I wish I'd never asked to be honest. Thanks though for all the really really useful advice.

 

[Rickster123]

No probs. now kindly jog on.