Advice on flue through fake window

[Nick88]

Good afternoon,

I was hoping someone could advise regarding the regulations around flue terminations through a 'fake' window.

We have a mixed-use development with a ground floor commercial unit and residential above. To keep with the style, a 'fake' window has been installed to the rear of the commercial unit - essentially a window shape but infilled with panelling rather than a window. The idea was to utilise this panelling for the flue termination to avoid core drilling the new brickwork as the next tenant may not require a flue, however it appears this may be in contradiction with Approved Document J, diagram 34 Note 1, where a flue shouldn't be within 150/300mm of "an opening into the building fabric formed for the purpose of accommodating a built-in element, such as a window frame".

This opening will never house a window whilst the flue is installed, it was purely for aesthetics. Has anyone come across this before, and what are our options? Is there a certain product/sealing process that needs to be carried out to allow the flue to pass through the panelling? So long as the panelling is of a suitable heat resistance, I can't personally see an issue with this other than not conforming with this Note - we have sufficient distance to all other restrictions shown on diagram 34.

Thanks in advance, Nick.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yep your fine I would say

 

[Nick88]

Yep your fine I would say

Thanks Shaun, out of interest are you Gas Safe Registered? We have been told that this isn't possible, but if there are Gas Safe engineers on here that believe this would be OK, I will have to ensure we get a second opinion on site.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yes fully if the window doesn’t open / there isn’t a window eg boarded up it’s not a window and it’s never going to be changed into a window I can’t see an issue

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Will leave this here

 

[Deleted member 120897]

Manufacturers technical helpline might be worth a shot.

 

[Nick88]

Manufacturers technical helpline might be worth a shot.

Thank you - I looked through the manual with nothing conclusive, I will try their helpline tomorrow.

 

[Last Plumber]

Thanks Shaun, out of interest are you Gas Safe Registered? We have been told that this isn't possible, but if there are Gas Safe engineers on here that believe this would be OK, I will have to ensure we get a second opinion on site.

I agree with @ShaunCorbs here. If it has purposely been infilled I think it is acceptable.

 

[Chuck]

"... an opening into the building fabric formed for the purpose of accommodating a built-in element" is not referring to a window but a hole that has been cut through the brickwork to accommodate a frame, which is exactly what is being proposed. I think there is a risk that this may come back to bite you if you allow it. I doubt it's a big risk, but a problem with things done in unconventional ways is that they attract attention.

 

[Last Plumber]

"... an opening into the building fabric formed for the purpose of accommodating a built-in element" is not referring to a window but a hole that has been cut through the brickwork to accommodate a frame, which is exactly what is being proposed. I think there is a risk that this may come back to bite you if you allow it. I'm not sure its a big risk, but the problem with doing things in unconventional ways it that they do attract attention.

I know where you're coming from. This is from Doc J:

opening here means an openable element, such as an openable window, or a fixed opening such as an air vent. However, in addition, the outlet should not be nearer than 150mm (fanned draught) or 300mm (natural draught) to an opening into the building fabric formed for the purpose of accommodating a built-in element, such as a window frame.

What are your thoughts on the 150 distance to the opening in the fabric as opposed to 300 mm to the actual openings (if they did exist).
Do you think it could be related to turbulence for example?
If so, what if the infill panel was flush with the wall surface?

I am just curious as to your thoughts @Chuck on this as it's one of 'those' areas again for me. I read the regs but want to know 'why'? There must be a reason.
Would it be the same as windows bricked up to avoid window tax for example. Some are flush and I would class those as gone but I see a lot were the reveal/opening in fabric is still there. Would you still need to terminate a flue 150mm away from those or do you think it boils down to how they are closed off? is one method temporary and one permanent?

 

[Nick88]

"... an opening into the building fabric formed for the purpose of accommodating a built-in element" is not referring to a window but a hole that has been cut through the brickwork to accommodate a frame, which is exactly what is being proposed. I think there is a risk that this may come back to bite you if you allow it. I doubt it's a big risk, but a problem with things done in unconventional ways is that they attract attention.

Thanks Chuck, this is where I feel it gets a little grey - most of the termination restrictions are clear cut and you can see the reasoning. But when this is specified and there is no clear reasoning for all eventualities, I feel it needs to be challenged - but I'm unsure how to get a definitive answer without being gas safe registered and obtaining direct advice from them.

I have currently requested the plumber that is concerned to do exactly that, hopefully he can obtain some comfort that this is OK; likewise, if not, hopefully there is a work around.

EDIT: Thanks Last Plumber, I think I'm on the same wavelength with you here - there are a few things that I'd prefer to challenge/ask why, rather than just take it for gospel! Making the panel flush could be an easy workaround, thanks for that.

 

[Chuck]

I am just curious as to your thoughts @Chuck on this as it's one of 'those' areas again for me. I read the regs but want to know 'why'? There must be a reason.

I've never managed to find where the Building Regs Advisory Cttee publish their minutes and if there was ever any consultation on this point I'm not aware of it.

So, your guess is as good as, or better than, mine. Mine is that whenever you have a frame of one material in a wall of another, e.g. aluminium window frame in a brickwork wall, you have a gap all round that needs sealing and it is very difficult (due to weathering and differential thermal expansion) to make a seal that is airtight and permanent. It would also be difficult for a GSR to establish that the frame was leak tight during the course of a routine inspection.

The note that we are puzzling over is worded in a very specific way to cover a very specific case, which makes me wonder if it was inserted in reaction to a particular incident.

 

[king of pipes]

Guidance from Gas safe would be your best option here as it's not a normal scenario beware though it may well not be the answer you want to hear , If I was installing it I would treat it as a window if it has a frame even if it is not openable, remove the glass and frame brick it up it's then it's a wall, this is a photo of a boiler flue I went to on a breakdown the flue gases damaged the timber the glass wasn't great either with putty missing The boiler was replaced a new flue with a plume kit fitted . Kop

 

[Last Plumber]

There's a good point. Could you not take it through the fake window and use a plume kit to take the terminal up and away from the opening in the building fabric?

Thoughts on that?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Don’t see the point as a plume kit doesn’t overcome the regs it’s only for nuisance

 

[Last Plumber]

Don’t see the point as a plume kit doesn’t overcome the regs it’s only for nuisance

It's an extended termination point for flue gases. It isn't just for nuisance. It takes the flue terminal to a new position where the gases escaping are away from something such as an opening into a building or an internal corner.

For example:
You could use one to take the terminal up above an opening in order to prevent the flue gases entering that opening.

They were designed to overcome problems with terminal positions. There are many instances where a flue termination point would not be a nuisance but would present a potential danger.

That is only my view on it of course.

 

[Knappers]

I don't get why this is even a discussion.
It's not a window, it doesn't and can't open, it doesn't vent into the building.
I might be more cautious if the terminal was going to be right next to it as its reasonable to think this could easily be converted to a window.
But through it is fine!
Ultimately tho its up to the installer, obviously you can't make the installer fit it if they think otherwise.
If you spoke to two different techs at gassafe then you could get two different answers as it's not always black and white.
Either way, you shouldn't worry about having it go through the panel, no reasonable engineer is going to condemn it for this.
For arguments sake, let's just stop calling it a fake window and call it a decorative panel?

 

[Knappers]

It's an extended termination point for flue gases. It isn't just for nuisance. It takes the flue terminal to a new position where the gases escaping are away from something such as an opening into a building or an internal corner.

For example:
You could use one to take the terminal up above an opening in order to prevent the flue gases entering that opening.

They were designed to overcome problems with terminal positions. There are many instances where a flue termination point would not be a nuisance but would present a potential danger.

That is only my view on it of course.

I think the point was it doesn't help with regs in this case as would only ever reduce clearance.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Or facade

 

[Knappers]

Just want to make the point (and get in a little rant as i sooo like to do) to other gas guys, the way i see it...
An engineer is not a box ticker that tiptoes around every regulation, they're often open to interpretation and we can make a call or even completely contravene a regulation provided that what we do meets or exceeds the standard of the regulation.
It's literally writen in every reg before almost everything else!
It's clear in this example that the provision about openings is to stop accidentally making an installation unsafe by changing a 'window'.
I'd say its impossible to accidentally fit a window in an opening that contains a flue and so - that's that.

 

[king of pipes]

We don't know what it is do we ? what's the panel made of we don't know ? there's no pictures so airing on the side of caution get it clarified by the boiler manufacturer or gas safe what you plan to do and why , we can't just say yeah fit it that's ok because it may not be ? Then we are giving incorrect information . Kop

 

[Knappers]

We don't know what it is do we ? what's the panel made of we don't know ? there's no pictures so airing on the side of caution get it clarified by the boiler manufacturer or gas safe what you plan to do and why , we can't just say yeah fit it that's ok because it may not be ? Then we are giving incorrect information . Kop

Agreed.
Just my opinion boss - like yours to brick it up.
I'm curious about what building materials wouldn't be suitable to terminate through?
(Anxiously expecting a fall - feels like questioning god)

 

[king of pipes]

Agreed.
Just my opinion boss - like yours to brick it up.
I'm curious about what building materials wouldn't be suitable to terminate through?
(Anxiously expecting a fall - feels like questioning god)

Exactly it's our opinions but that opinion might be wrong we don't know ? we as engineers can work and even bend the regulation to suit our own installations i do and I'm sure you do ?, I've been on the end of being reported to gas safe for nuisance plumeing into a communal passage way, there was a boiler there for 25 years soon as I swapped it out for a modern combi it then became a issue , the neighbor had British Gas fit a boiler 2 weeks prior to me doing my work and they said it couldn't go there ? but it was within the regs they just took the easiest and cheapest option but their customer reported me it all turned out ok in the end but it's the hassle and time wasted time I didn't have , a visit from the inspector and then 2 other installs to provide evidence i was working within the Regs and competent FFS I've been registered since Corgi came into existence, but you can and do become complacent and when it happens to you its a pita.
I'm not saying your wrong in your interpretation a gas boiler flue can be fitted through most materials now but it's where those products of combustion go and how it's terminated that could be a problem? and cause issues so when we're asked to provide guidance on flueing then I'd always advise taking further advice because there so many variables and truthfully we don't know because we haven't seen it . Regards Kop