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spikeywan

Hi Guys,

MeBird had a new boiler fitted a few months back, and things just haven't been right since.

First, the system was filling with air to the point that she was bleeding radiators constantly. Literally 3 times a day, and more.

The plumber turned the pump down from 3 to 2, and this has stopped the air problem. Generally the system seemed to be behaving itself, but with this cold weather, the boiler now keeps turning itself down. It may have been doing this for some time, and she hasn't noticed, though.

When the boilier comes on, all 5 flames light up in the display and the boiler operates at full blast. The water temp rises, but before it reaches it's set temp, the boiler cuts out, and sits there with just one flame on for about 10 minutes. It then powers up to a full 5 flames, but again, after a few moments it shuts down to 1 flame.

Eventually it gets up to temperature, and behaves normally.

I think that the water is heating up too quickly. I went around all the radiators, and opened them all right up, so that the flow was as unimpeded as possible, and this has helped, but it still does it once or twice before it gets up to it's set temp and operates normally.

I believe that the pump needs to be on 3, as it's a big house, and this will stop the boiler from overheating and cutting out, but as soon as we turn it up, you can hear a gurgling noise, and I reckon it's starting to suck air in again.

In the following picture, pipe B goes up into the loft and is positioned over the F&E tank, so that water from the system can expand into the tank.

Pipe C is the feed from the F&E tank, and joins the system at point D. It goes behind another pipe.

What's the thing labelled A called? Is this supposed to allow water to expand into pipe B, but prevent the pump from sucking in air?

IMG_2272.jpg

You can see a bigger picture here.

Thanks for any help.
 
A is called air separator ,bot i thing they should not install magna clean on the flow pipe,you have one black round thing on the pipe going from the floor to the A (air separator),the cold feed pipe should be Tee before the air vent pipe in line !!! you can give us more pictures,but i think is pipes are been located wrong as another way is to use product A,but then cold feed , expansion pipe to be located within A.

Call installer back as is a day work to relocate all pipe work ,or better get someone who knows what he is doing !!!

if you list your location some one from here will be able to come over and relocate all pipes for you !!

u need one of this
http://www.heatingcontrolsonline.co.uk/tower-22mm-air-separator-with-cold-feed-p-269.html

and they should have fitted the system with auto bypass to prevent boiler damage
http://www.bizrate.co.uk/plumbingsu...oneywell+straight+auto+bypass+valve+22mm.html
 
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get the guy, back every air seprator I have seen has 4 contions not three, pipe D is the one causing the problem.
 
if you teed onto the return under the so called seperator it should work
 
spikeywan said:
In the following picture, pipe B goes up into the loft and is positioned over the F&E tank, so that water from the system can expand into the tank.
Click to expand...
That's not strictly correct. When cold the water level in the F&E tank is the same as the level in the vent pipe (the one hanging over the tank). When the water heats up and expands the level rises in both the Fand E tank and the vent pipe. It should not rise so far that the water comes out of the vent pipe.

Water coming out of the vent pipe is usually caused by pumping over.

The main purpose of the vent pipe is to allow air to escape and provide a safety if the water overheats.
 
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As previously mentioned, the installer has fitted the magnaclean in the one place you can't, between the boiler and open vent, and needs to be moved.

Hard to tell what pipe he has cut the cold feed into, (pipe C) but probably the return. But if he had cut it into the open vent (pipe D) then that should solve the problem of the pump sucking in air.

IMO he has made quite a bodge of it, I wouldnt get him back and would cut my losses and get someone else in.

I would remove the air seperator, as it's almost pointless in it's current configuration, and they also tend to get blocked up with sludge. A small repipe, shouldnt take to long, and will sort your problems out.
 
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He said the guy fitted a new boiler not the whole system ,
 
in my experience leaving an old air seperator on the system is asking for trouble usually full of crap and very prone to perforating plus the other bits mentioned above id be asking my self what qualifications this guy has
 
i dont like em, best to strip it out and do a conventional vent inlet pump
 
Rip out air separator and F&E tank and convert to sealed system. Problem solved.
 
Ah! That's very interesting!

Originally, there was no Magnaclean, and pipe C joined the system where the Magnaclean is now. What the plumber did was to move pipe C to join the system at point D, and fit the Magnaclean where pipe C used to join the system.

So, I'll tell MeBird to get him back to put pipe C back to where it was originally, and hopefully that will cure the problem.

What about the Magnaclean, though? Would it be ok to fit it at point D?
 
Is that a ball-a-fix valve on the cold feed tee?

would love to see what is under the sock.

Take some more photos, esp the magna clean
 
I'll take some more pics for you the next time I'm over, which should be this weekend.

No, I didn't do it, she had a plumber in who did it at the same time when he replaced the boiler.

(Thanks for all the help, by the way. This is a great forum.)
 
The best place for the Magnaclean on any fully pumped system is the return pipe as close to the boiler as possible. We always find that they work much better here not to mention the water is cooler. I have known the lid to become excessively tight/stiff from getting over hot. If its not possible to fit on the return and it has to go on the flow side, always fit after the pump as per the instructions supplied with the magnaclean. Remember, the warranty is only valied if fitted correctly.

If you ever have a problem with a magnaclean, ring them up as they have a very helpful customer service.
 
I just Googled the Magnaclean fitting instructions, and he's fitted it in the ONLY place shown with an X. D'oh!

Anyway, the Magnaclean installation sheet also shows the vent pipe to be first, then the feed pipe, then the pump.

In MeBird's system, before the plumber moved the feed pipe to fit the Magnaclean, it was feed pipe, vent pipe (coming off the air separator), then pump.

So, he definitely needs to switch the Magnaclean and feed pipe to the correct sides of the pump. This leaves me with a couple of questions about the order of the feed, vent and pump...

Does the use of the air separator mean that the vent can be between the feed and the pump, as it was originally, or should I ask for the feed pipe to go between the vent and pump, as shown on the Magnaclean installation sheet?

When he comes to put it right, I'm going to ask him to replace the air separator as well, just to be on the safe side.

I'm just hoping that he doesn't take the hump to a layman telling him how to do his job. :rolleyes:
 
spikeywan said:
I just Googled the Magnaclean fitting instructions, and he's fitted it in the ONLY place shown with an X. D'oh!

Anyway, the Magnaclean installation sheet also shows the vent pipe to be first, then the feed pipe, then the pump.

In MeBird's system, before the plumber moved the feed pipe to fit the Magnaclean, it was feed pipe, vent pipe (coming off the air separator), then pump.

So, he definitely needs to switch the Magnaclean and feed pipe to the correct sides of the pump. This leaves me with a couple of questions about the order of the feed, vent and pump...

Does the use of the air separator mean that the vent can be between the feed and the pump, as it was originally, or should I ask for the feed pipe to go between the vent and pump, as shown on the Magnaclean installation sheet?

When he comes to put it right, I'm going to ask him to replace the air separator as well, just to be on the safe side.

I'm just hoping that he doesn't take the hump to a layman telling him how to do his job. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


Just show him the magnaclean instructions. The penny should drop then. He will realise (or should) that he needs to do the remedial work to put it right. I got to be honest this is a simple set up and a competent person should not be making these errors. You have every right to question his work. You are paying him to do a professional job in your property.
 
The should be a port to accomodate the cold feed on the Air Seperator, I suspect the "installer"capped it and connected the cold feed to point 'D'.
The vent always comes before the Cold feed in the 'pecking order' from the boiler to the pump, other wise...it'll 'suck in'...surprise surprise!!
 
The plumber only fitted the magnaclean (on the wrong side of the pump) and moved the cold feed to the other side of the pump.

The air separator is original, only has 3 connections, none are capped, and was untouched by the plumber.

From my Googling it looks like older systems did have the feed before the expansion pipe, which is how this system was originally. It's tempting to put it back like it was.

However, to sort it out properly, I'm going to recommend that a new 4 way air separator is fitted, which will put the expansion pipe and cold feed into the correct order, and get him to move the Magnaclean.

So really, he should move the magnaclean and put the feed pipe back where it was for free, and be able to charge for fitting a new air separator, and moving the cold feed onto it. However, as he'll have to move the cold feed anyway, I suppose he can only reasonably charge for fitting a new separator.

As suggested earlier, I'm going to get one of these fitted.

Thanks for all your help, it's really appreciated.
 
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you dont actually need an air seperator if the pipework is in the right places unless its a low head install
 
I bet its not the first one he fitted like that,

If people havent fitted something before why dont they read the instructions? Maybe read them in the van before you go in if you are embarassed! I like reading them infront of customer sometimes, but make a point that im checking for "Updates to the installation specification" haha!
 
Air seperators where designed for low head situations. ( i believe )
If your going to the extent of moving cold feed, take out air seperator.

Post a picture of f/e tank, and height above boiler
 
Well guys, I know it's been a long time, but MeBird finally had a plumber in last week to sort it out.

She's chased the original plumber for quite a while, but had no joy, so she got another bloke in. I explained the problem to him, and he agreed with our conclusions. I mentioned the forum, and he was interested, so may even pop in at some point.

He swapped the magnaclean to the correct side of the pump, fitted the new 4 way air separator, and turned the pump back up to 3.

Now the water temp rises more slowly. The boiler comes on, heats the water up to the set temperature in one go without cutting out half a dozen times. When it hits the set temperature, it's able to regulate itself and turns the gas down to keep the water at the correct temperature, without shutting off.

The radiators are all fine, no air has got into the system, and the cold feed tank no longer overflows onto the conservatory roof, like it used to when the pump was turned up to 3.

So all is finally well.

Thanks for all your help, guys.

Here's the 'after' photo, and a link a bigger one:

IMG_2558.jpg
 

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