Should a Bronze Pump have a a Timer?

w3421 · Mar 27, 2019

I’m a homeowner with no experience of hot water systems, so any help will be greatly appreciated.

I’ve not been living in my house for the last 12 months (due to a flood), but I’ve recently had a much higher than expected bill. I had a brand new boiler and cylinder with bronze pump fitted in the garage 10 months ago. There has been a constant noise coming from the garage for 10 months, but neither the electrician nor plumber had an answer. I have now been told the noise may be the bronze pump that the plumber fitted as part of the system (which I didn’t even realise was there). It has been fitted without a timer and makes a noise 24 hours per day, 7 days per week.

I have spoken with the manufacturers of the bronze pumps who said that a timer should be fitted as standard with this pump and a secondary hot water return. However, neither the plumber nor electrician even mentioned this to me, even though it was a brand new system / plumbing throughout the house and re-wire. I didn't even know this was an option. Does anyone know whether fitting a timer may help with the bills? How much does it cost to run a bronze pump 24 hours per day on a secondary hot water return? Could it just be left running?

Last Plumber · Mar 27, 2019

w3421 said:
Does anyone know whether fitting a timer may help with the bills? How much does it cost to run a bronze pump 24 hours per day on a secondary hot water return? Could it just be left running?

It will use around 50-60 Watts, if it's a domestic 15/50 circulator.
Similar to a table lamp bulb (real bulbs). It is up to you if you want to time it. Obviously it doesn't need to be on all day and night, only when you're in.
It gets rid of the dead legs in the Domestic Hot Water circuit so that you don't need to run water off to get hot through to a draw off point. If the Plumber designed the system with that in, I presume it's a large house or at least has long runs of pipe to taps from the Cylinder?

Welder · Mar 27, 2019

w3421 said:
I’m a homeowner with no experience of hot water systems, so any help will be greatly appreciated.

I’ve not been living in my house for the last 12 months (due to a flood), but I’ve recently had a much higher than expected bill. I had a brand new boiler and cylinder with bronze pump fitted in the garage 10 months ago. There has been a constant noise coming from the garage for 10 months, but neither the electrician nor plumber had an answer. I have now been told the noise may be the bronze pump that the plumber fitted as part of the system (which I didn’t even realise was there). It has been fitted without a timer and makes a noise 24 hours per day, 7 days per week.

I have spoken with the manufacturers of the bronze pumps who said that a timer should be fitted as standard with this pump and a secondary hot water return. However, neither the plumber nor electrician even mentioned this to me, even though it was a brand new system / plumbing throughout the house and re-wire. I didn't even know this was an option. Does anyone know whether fitting a timer may help with the bills? How much does it cost to run a bronze pump 24 hours per day on a secondary hot water return? Could it just be left running?

To expand upon my colleague's explanation.

As the distance to basins, baths & showers is quite large, when a hot tap is run it would take some time for hot water to get to the tap. So, this 'circulator' is fitted. Being fitted it means that hot water is almost instantly available.

To achieve this it must circulate the hot water. Normally this pump would be 'timed' so that it runs at times of peak demand such as mornings when everyone is getting up they don't have to wait around. However! There is a cost to this convenience. Firstly there is the cost of running the pump and then there is a cost of the lost energy from circulating hot water (which obvs loses some of its heat).

At the very least, the pump should not run overnight. So, get yourself a good electrician who can interlock the pump into the hot water control circuit and also put in a multi session timer so you can have it run when its needed and not when its not. Make sure the sparks includes a fixed time override too so if you suddently need it for an hour all you have to do is press a buttoon rather than reprogramme. Your savings, I suspect, will be not inconsiderable. HTH.

ShaunCorbs · Mar 27, 2019

Normally either a timer or pir sensor is used to interlock the pump

chris watkins · Mar 27, 2019

What pump has been installed ?
There are now much more energy efficient secondary circulators out there using a lot less than the 50-60Watts quoted. You can buy them with built in timers saving the electrical costs or you could use that money to buy a smart pump with Autoadapt which continually learns your pattens of use & turns itself on & off to match - Comfort 15-14 BXA PM.

Just as important is the requirement (by Law) that the flow & return hot water pipes forming this system are insulated to limit the heatloss when it is running.

Welder · Mar 28, 2019

chris watkins said:
What pump has been installed ?
There are now much more energy efficient secondary circulators out there using a lot less than the 50-60Watts quoted. You can buy them with built in timers saving the electrical costs or you could use that money to buy a smart pump with Autoadapt which continually learns your pattens of use & turns itself on & off to match - Comfort 15-14 BXA PM.

Just as important is the requirement (by Law) that the flow & return hot water pipes forming this system are insulated to limit the heatloss when it is running.

That insulation requirement is not retrospective though - as sensible as it is.
One other thing there. Something deep in the empty space tween my ears says the return pipework must NOT be plastic or specifically gas permeable plastic. Thinking copper or MLCP okay but not too sure...

Millsy 82 · Mar 28, 2019

YorkshireDave said:
That insulation requirement is not retrospective though - as sensible as it is.
One other thing there. Something deep in the empty space tween my ears says the return pipework must NOT be plastic or specifically gas permeable plastic. Thinking copper or MLCP okay but not too sure...

Plastic is a big no no on secondary circuits not just the return. It doesn't like being hot all the time.

Welder · Mar 28, 2019

One never knows if the flow is in plastic if its a retro install tho.

Millsy 82 · Mar 28, 2019

True but if your fitting a return at a later date boards etc would have to come up anyway so may as well double check.

Otherwise it would be a case of pipe splitting further down the line and you know who the customer would blame.

Stigster · Mar 28, 2019

Millsy 82 said:
Plastic is a big no no on secondary circuits not just the return. It doesn't like being hot all the time.

I think it's the heat combined with a constantly replenishing source of water that causes it to fail. Afterall I don't think there are any warnings about running your heating 24/7 (that I know of) using plastic pipework. Maybe it's something to do with heat and oxygenated water that causes the higher risk of failure if used in secondary returns?

Welder · Mar 28, 2019

Stigster said:
I think it's the heat combined with a constantly replenishing source of water that causes it to fail. Afterall I don't think there are any warnings about running your heating 24/7 (that I know of) using plastic pipework. Maybe it's something to do with heat and oxygenated water that causes the higher risk of failure if used in secondary returns?

Remember the oxy is why you use a bronze or st/st pump.

Millsy 82 · Mar 28, 2019

I think it's more to do with the pressure and constant heat. You don't have your heating constantly at 60deg and 3-3.5 bar.

I can't remember but it was a rep that told me as I asked why you couldn't use it but that was years ago.

Chalked · Mar 28, 2019

Have you had a larger electric bill, or gas?
Don’t forget, the cost of drying the property out and dehumidifier running 24/7.

Stigster · Mar 29, 2019

Millsy 82 said:
I think it's more to do with the pressure and constant heat. You don't have your heating constantly at 60deg and 3-3.5 bar.

I can't remember but it was a rep that told me as I asked why you couldn't use it but that was years ago.

Very true, certainly a different situation regarding the pressure.

Old Account · Mar 29, 2019

As far as I know for new modern pumps in single-family homes the power absorbed is between 10 and 30 watts e.g Older models, however can claim significantly more power for the circulation. In such cases replacement with a more modern device can pay for itself quickly off especially when newer devices are often also equipped with an integrated thermostat via which the pump is switched off automatically after reaching a certain temperature. But the pump should not be longer off than 8h due to the legionella. You also have to make sure to keep the temperature up over 60 degrees.

Should a Bronze Pump have a a Timer?

w3421

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Welder

ShaunCorbs

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chris watkins

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Millsy 82

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Welder

Millsy 82

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Stigster

Welder

Millsy 82

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Chalked

Stigster

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