Zoning education.

[happyflyer]

DHW DCW labelled incorrectly as return shown as DCW. No back flow protection that I can see. Flue not pointed, gas pipework under supported and asking for damage. Drain off in a considerate location. No Aav??

LLH well supported with no Aav

Couldn't see where system water coming from?
Manifold looked ok? Was bypass facing right way? Drain off on primary side of LLH missing?

Around twin head looked messy. Frost control?

Gas sleeve not pointed or sealed, earth? Supply looks a bit narrow for 100kw?

Probably missed all sorts.

Jeez Ermi,

Even I didn't spot any of them, you got the job, when do you want to start, minimum wage OK...:crowngrin:

 

[happyflyer]

Ermi,

Look at the photo of the boiler and lets start at the boiler and discuss the merits of fitting a shut off valve on the flow and return directly under the boiler, have you ever seen this on the domestic scene. BTW the expansion vessel is not inside the boiler case, you could have also assumed that looking and the size of the system

Tony

 

[Leo21]

All these extra controls are well and good, but will the custs want to pay the extra? I don't think so. Then there's the reliability which is carp on most of these wireless products.

 

[happyflyer]

All these extra controls are well and good, but will the custs want to pay the extra? I don't think so. Then there's the reliability which is carp on most of these wireless products.

No Leo Custard won't want to pay until Custard can't pay gas bill, I am not advocating wireless

 

[Ermintrude]

Got no choice if it's a big house. Part L.

Re expansion ; wood for the trees didn't see big red elephant in room. If valves full bore I always fit as make repairs or boiler change easier. If in a cascade I always fit trimming valve on outside two just to help set up. ( but that's over 90kw so I never done anything over 75, honest )

Is pump internal? No magnetic filter? Adey industrial ones are nice

 

[happyflyer]

Ermi,

No magfilter no copper in system all steel, could have still fitted one, big red elephant on other side of room, point was would you fit two HAND operated valves one on flow and return directly under boiler, if you want to isolate the boiler look at the other photo, it would take you 30 seconds to close all the zone valve, drop the pressure in the boiler by lifting the PRV and no water in boiler, valves not needed and no one could accidentally turn them off when boiler running, a mere point and a waste of money.

 

[Ermintrude]

Never dump by prv! The fkr never reseals, drain off at lowest point it's a.basic! Perhaps some lock Sheilds then? Or ones that require a hex key. But who's going in the plant room? Care taker? . No provision for balancing on returns either? Assume each cir is more than one emitter?

 

[happyflyer]

Never dump by prv! The fkr never reseals, drain off at lowest point it's a.basic! Perhaps some lock Sheilds then? Or ones that require a hex key. But who's going in the plant room? Care taker? . No provision for balancing on returns either? Assume each cir is more than one emitter?

Ermi,

I was waiting for you to spot the none balancing on the zones, yes and there are about 5 radiators on each zone, that's why I told you to go back to the zone valve photo, BTW all the snagging has been put right now.

The blowing off of the PRV is rather interesting, you say don't do it, how would you go about replacing the air gap on a Megaflow


Tony

 

[Ermintrude]

Blow it off and replace prv. ££££ though!

 

[happyflyer]

Blow it off and replace prv. ££££ though!

Ermi,

The process for replacing the air bubble in a Megaflow entails manually opening the PRV, it's a standard procedure that you may need to do twice a year,
they don't leak after, its good gear.


Tony

 

[Killy Bing]

Ermi,

The process for replacing the air bubble in a Megaflow entails manually opening the PRV, it's a standard procedure that you may need to do twice a year,
they don't leak after, its good gear.


Tony

but that's half way up the cylinder and its not filled with sludge!!!

 

[happyflyer]

but that's half way up the cylinder and its not filled with sludge!!!

What you are both saying is a boiler PRV is only good for one blow off, jeeez what are they ever making them of, plastic

 

[Killy Bing]

And when you get crud in the seating, prv is dripping, do you leave it or change it?

do you charge the customer or reach into your own pocket?

 

[Nostrum]

What do you size the rads on? If upstairs is off then the rads downstairs will be undersized taking into account the unheated space above, or the rads will be sized in that manner and be over sized when upstairs is heated?

 

[Gray0689]

What do you size the rads on? If upstairs is off then the rads downstairs will be undersized taking into account the unheated space above, or the rads will be sized in that manner and be over sized when upstairs is heated?

Size rads on room as normal

 

[Nostrum]

So what happens when the customers phones you up saying its cold downstairs? Tell them to turn the heating on upstairs? Goes against the reasons for doing a detailed heat loss calc.

i can kind of understand in new build where the insulation between floors is good but for retro?

ive heard the zoning requirements are going to be amended

 

[Gray0689]

So what happens when the customers phones you up saying its cold downstairs? Goes against the reasons for doing a detailed heat loss calc.

You tell them to turn the stat up in that room

 

[Nostrum]

But it could be that the radiator isn't capable of raising the temp as the design heat loss is less than the actual losses because of the unheated areas?

i know this is worst case, but weather compensation could cause this to happen more often.

 

[Gray0689]

But it could be that the radiator isn't capable of raising the temp as the design heat loss is less than the actual losses because of the unheated areas?

i know this is worst case, but weather compensation could cause this to happen more often.

The zones are heated to whatever the temp is set to on stat simple
Your heat loss is per room

 

[Nostrum]

But the emitter is matched to the heat loss of that room based on fabric losses including the surfaces above and below. A colder room upstairs will promote a greater loss than if it were heated. So if you deign the system correctly, and choose a radiator to suit the heat losses of a room with a heated room above. Then run the system with an unheated space above. At the specified outside temperature the emitter will technically be undersized.

How much by will depend on a lot of factors so I'm not sure how much effect it would have, but from a theoretical point of view I struggle to see how you can zone a system and design it to operate in the conditions you have designed it for effectively.

i suppose most people don't give a toss but I like to be given a logical explanation for these regulations that are introduced by some pen pusher.

 

[Gray0689]

Your designed temp is 21 living and 18 bedrooms
But as we all know some people like it higher some lower
Do you factor that into your design no we aim for a set point only
So the room will be heated to that desired temp on stat
If the room above to side or underneath is at a lower temp it may and only may as depends on a lot of things ie insulation even to if the person leaves a door open or closed
We can't factor that fine a detail on it nor would I want to

 

[basildog]

What do you size the rads on? If upstairs is off then the rads downstairs will be undersized taking into account the unheated space above, or the rads will be sized in that manner and be over sized when upstairs is heated?

That asumes conventional construction and have found these days more and more floor spaces are being insulated either for soundproofing or heat loss !
Drives the sparkies mad as cables have to be uprated if insulated !

 

[Nostrum]

I see what your saying but if you look at it on a larger scale, say an older style large detached house, the whole of upstairs could be off on a zone. Therefore you've effectively halved the heat output but the heat loss remains the same. Ok there are surfaces in between these two zones that would reduce the heat loss rate but it is still going to have an effect surely? I struggle to see how the zoning will save any significant amount of energy after factoring the cost of the extra controls in a retro fit. A good idea in principle but flawed in my opinion. A well designed system with correctly sized radiators would be much more beneficial pound for pound.

 

[Gray0689]

I see what your saying but if you look at it on a larger scale, say an older style large detached house, the whole of upstairs could be off on a zone. Therefore you've effectively halved the heat output but the heat loss remains the same. Ok there are surfaces in between these two zones that would reduce the heat loss rate but it is still going to have an effect surely? I struggle to see how the zoning will save any significant amount of energy after factoring the cost of the extra controls in a retro fit. A good idea in principle but flawed in my opinion. A well designed system with correctly sized radiators would be much more beneficial pound for pound.

On a retrofit the best money spent is on insulation before anything else

 

[Nostrum]

That asumes conventional construction and have found these days more and more floor spaces are being insulated either for soundproofing or heat loss !
Drives the sparkies mad as cables have to be uprated if insulated !

yes and I would completely agree with this in a new build as said before, I'm questioning its effectiveness in a retro fit scenario as they try to imply in part L.

 

[Nostrum]

On a retrofit the best money spent is on insulation before anything else

the basics, of course, but the costs of ripping up the floors between intermediate levels and internal walls would be prohibitive.

 

[Gray0689]

the basics, of course, but the costs of ripping up the floors between intermediate levels and internal walls would be prohibitive.

Insulated plasterboard on walls and ceilings

 

[basildog]

yes and I would completely agree with this in a new build as said before, I'm questioning its effectiveness in a retro fit scenario as they try to imply in part L.

I have never done New build apart from extensions but have done a lot of total refurbs where floors are all up !
I guess all jobs really need to be treated on their own but as we all know this will never fit in to some pen pushers litle boxes ?

 

[Nostrum]

Probably even more cost to that, removing architraves and skirting, electrical fittings, radiators, fixing, skimming, redecoration it would be cheaper to move house!

 

[basildog]

Probably even more cost to that, removing architraves and skirting, electrical fittings, radiators, fixing, skimming, redecoration it would be cheaper to move house!

With the lot I used to work for they change houses as often as wives and money really is not something they worry about until they have to pay you !
If the Feng Shui master says wooden floors then wooden floors wifey gets !

 

[Gray0689]

Probably even more cost to that, removing architraves and skirting, electrical fittings, radiators, fixing, skimming, redecoration it would be cheaper to move house!

It's for a total refurb only

 

[Ermintrude]

Your designed temp is 21 living and 18 bedrooms
But as we all know some people like it higher some lower
Do you factor that into your design no we aim for a set point only
So the room will be heated to that desired temp on stat
If the room above to side or underneath is at a lower temp it may and only may as depends on a lot of things ie insulation even to if the person leaves a door open or closed
We can't factor that fine a detail on it nor would I want to

Will just take longer to hit set point that's the beauty of the zoned system. All zones reach desired temp no matter what the external conditions (within reason) all that changes is the lag (time to reach set point)

 

[happyflyer]

There will never be a better time to fit heating controls gas and electricity prices set to rise substantially every year for the 17 years, over the rate of inflation, not my words,
your governments.

 

[happyflyer]

Arctic winter conditions are on the way, gas has just gone up 10% across the piece, long range forecast long hard winter, now do you think full house zoning is a good or bad idea. We are importing LPG from Africa to top up our failing North Sea gas fields, when are people going to listen, I will bet there will be gas shortages in 2014, if they are right with the long range forecast there will no doubt be power cuts.

 

[Leo21]

Arctic winter conditions are on the way, gas has just gone up 10% across the piece, long range forecast long hard winter, now do you think full house zoning is a good or bad idea. We are importing LPG from Africa to top up our failing North Sea gas fields, when are people going to listen, I will bet there will be gas shortages in 2014, if they are right with the long range forecast there will no doubt be power cuts.

Great idea, just not cost effective unless new build.