WRAS question

Discussion in 'Water Regulations' started by Riley, Jun 1, 2015.

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Discuss WRAS question in the Water Regulations area at UKPlumbersForums.co.uk.

  1. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR


    I'm having a bit of a nightmare with quoting for a job.

    Customer keeps arguing the toss over a product that they want installing.

    They would like a douche installed in close proximity to the toilet ie there is a chance that the hose could end up in the pan. The product that they have purchased recommends an anti syphon valve to prevent backflow contamination. I was not sure about this and asked the question on here the other day and was kindly recommended to contact WRAS accordingly.

    I did this and received a very concise response re installing a separate water cistern with the necessary air gaps to ensure that contamination could not occur.

    I totally understand what I was sent and I have done my best to explain this to the customer however they cannot understand why it cannot be just installed as per the MIs. I can see both sides of the problem here but I am not keen to install in line with the MIs as this is a landlord property and don't want the Landlord to have any comeback or any subsequent WRAS follow up.

    Would i I be better off just binning this job?
  2. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    cant you use a double check valve ?????
    • Like Like x 1
  3. plumben

    plumben Plumber

    If its a rented property why not just surgest to the landlord to just not install the douche
  4. Geyser

    Geyser Plumber GSR

    No you can't. I had same problem after getting well into the job wben customer turned up with one.
  5. Rckape

    Rckape Plumber GSR

    A double check valve is only suitable for category 3 fluids. This install required protection from category 5 fluids, realistically a break tank is the only option.

    I'm sure if you look in the MI's it will have a clause requiring compliance with local regulations. As far as I know water MI's do not super cede water regs unlike gas.

    For me it's a case of doing it to regs or not at all.

    Of course it's much easier not to install in the first place.
    • Like Like x 2
  6. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    just had a quick look on the internet and most say fit like this :D


    and from wras them selves

    9. Bidets

    Generic specification is limited to over rim supply (not ascending spray) bidets only:

    BS EN 35 and BS 5505-3 – Pedestal bidets.
    BS EN 36 and BS 5505-3 – Wall hung bidets.
    See also BS EN 14528 Bidets. Functional requirements and test methods.

    Water supply to bidets is by separate taps or mixer tap (preferably thermostatic), with or without adjustable spray nozzles (described as ‘over rim’ supply). There may also be a diverter to supply a douche spray rising from the bottom of the bowl.

    Water Regulations or Byelaws usually have onerous requirements for the connection of bidets with rising douche or flexible handspray, e.g. a separate break tank. These measures will reduce water pressure, which may be inadequate for the bidet douche spray. Check the details with the manufacturer and/ or the water company.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2015
  7. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    I did suggest that to lady at WRAS but she said it was insufficient for Cat 5 water
  8. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    My thoughts exactly
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    Tenants want it for "religious" purposes
  10. snowhead

    snowhead Well-Known Member

  11. plumben

    plumben Plumber

    That doesn't justify installing one, and the extra expenses for the landlord, the next tenant will want it removing, they can stand in the bath/shower tray and use the shower if they need one that bad
  12. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    Oh I know and don't get me wrong I totally agree. The landlord is happy as they're good tenants and are willing to contribute to the cost
  13. plumben

    plumben Plumber

    They wont be that happy when you add on x hundreds of pounds to install a break tank
  14. chris watkins

    chris watkins Plumber

    This is a common one that comes up all the time in London, you simple can't install them unless the water supply to them is protected by a class AA or AB air gap, either using a cistern or a pipe interrupter (& try doing that with a blended water supply).

    This is Category 5 water we are talking about here, if our water supplies are contaminated by this (e coli) you can kill not only the tenants but the whole street or more.
    I would remind installers on here that you would be liable along with the landlord should this happen (they would argue they were employing a competent person in the form of a plumber).

    If you do not possess your Water Regs Ticket I strongly urge you to get it !!

    With regards to the Manufactures Instruction I use to explain it like this - In this country we do not, as a rule, have Laws aimed at stopping the sale of products, it would just not be possible instead we legislate to prevent there use.

    Remember those mini motor bikes that were all the rage a few years back, not illegal to sell them just ride them down the street.
    • Like Like x 2
  15. plumben

    plumben Plumber

    Top points raised her, the only problem is you get DIY wannabes who can install plumbing but have never heard of water regs or think they apply to them, and this could be the house next door too you,
    • Like Like x 1
  16. chris watkins

    chris watkins Plumber

    Too true but the old adage of "ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the Law" would apply & they would/should be prosecuted.

    The difference in an unregistered industry where anyone can do Plumbing, is that you might expect someone selling their services, to know what is required by the Law & carry this out.
  17. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    Thanks all for your comments. I certainly will not be fitting this appliance not to regs so they can forget that one from the start
  18. joni os

    joni os Plumber

    Skid marks and Klingons might be seen by some to represent British values but for those who aspire to a greater standard of personal hygiene the industry continues to evolve. The WC basin will be category 5 but provided an air gap is above spill level the hose is considered category 3.
  19. chris watkins

    chris watkins Plumber

    Sorry I don't understand, could you explain?
  20. joni os

    joni os Plumber

    Same situation as if you have shower over bath with adjacent WC.
    In my experience this is often non compliant, especially with combined bath tap shower arrangement, but I refrain from racial abuse even if house owner is English.
    Unlike an open ended shower head the apparatus in question is trigger sealed at nozzle, giving an additional safeguard to back syphon.
  21. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    Please don't let this turn into a thread that it's not meant to be guys. I merely said "religious" because I didn't ask the tenant for a full in depth explanation of why they wanted it fitting. I don't need to know.

    Joni os I do agree with your point mate however this is a specific hose to be used over the toilet so the likelihood is that it will end up down the loo or tainted with the unmentionable. :smile: the shower next to the toilet thing is not designed to be used in conjunction with the toilet. Yes accidents happen but when the regs state specifically that the air break is required then I don't see any way round it.
    • Like Like x 2
  22. chris watkins

    chris watkins Plumber

    Yes it is a great shame that some feel the need to descend to the gutter, washing is, I agree, far superior to wiping however just because it is someones tradition to wash with a hose over a WC pan does not exempt them from the Law of the Land.

    The inhabitants of this land have had a safe to drink water supply for well over a 150 year & should fight to ensure that it stays that way.

    Things should be open to change, you are correct, so long as this does not increase the risk of contamination, unfortunately sticking a trigger valve (or any other mechanical device) on the ends of the the hose does not provide the necessary protection we deem for the risk associated with its use like this.

    If you wish to practice Plumbing in this country, whoever you are, you should find out and abide by the Law, it is not your place to decide what can & can't be fitted no matter if it is being sold or it is your long time practice or belief.

    There are other ways to achieve the same ends, in the seventies it was all the rage to have a Bidet installed for washing your rear, so long as it is an over the rim type, there is no problem installing & using these still. It just requires a slight change in ones routine (moving to the right or the left) & of cause a bit less room in your bathroom.
    • Like Like x 1
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2015
  23. joni os

    joni os Plumber

    I share your concern Chris regards contamination of water supply, and nowhere did I suggest the trigger was a substitute for the necessary air gap. Unfortunately many of these bum guns are imported from the far east, to no known British or EU standard. Unless, like toys, trading standards seize them at the port of entry, people will install them.
    At some stage, like unvented cylinders, regs will be written, with safeguards, to allow their usage and those of you with most shout should use it to hasten the process.
    Meanwhile, I question the methodology of walking away and effectively pass the install to anyone who will tee off a rising main with no check valves and no air gap.
  24. chris watkins

    chris watkins Plumber

    As said above, because they don't want to break the Law but more importantly endanger our water supplies, unlike you who seems willing to put profit before safety or have I got that wrong as well?

    Can I humbly suggest that you attend the Water Regulations course if you carry out plumbing work.
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2015
  25. joni os

    joni os Plumber

    Did you miss the bit about air gap making it category 3.
  26. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    Look thanks all for this I didn't mean to cause rows.

    My only intention from walking away is to show my employer letting agent/landlord that I am not prepared to carry out substandard work not to regulations. I agree that they may well get it done by some idiot prepared to put the water supply at risk. It may also put the landlord off doing it all together. They only insisted on it being done by a professional to avoid leaks. I don't suppose that regs have even come into the equation.

    I merely asked on here to see if someone knew the answer, I know that WRAS are an accessible resource so also contacted them. It's one of those jobs that I just don't come across often so rather than blindly attack the job I wanted an objective opinion.

    Thanks all
  27. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Last edited: Jun 10, 2015
  28. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    Cheers Shaun
  29. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    did you sort it out in the end?
  30. chris watkins

    chris watkins Plumber

    I know I have banged on about this quite enough now so this is my last moan, just to be clear it would not be OK if it wasn't off the mains. Even if the hot & cold to that blending valve were cistern fed but the cistern also served other fitting such as hot & cold taps etc.

    The only way it works is if the cistern & hot water system are dedicated & serve only the Category 5 risks.
  31. Riley

    Riley Plumber GSR

    Not been sorted as tenant won't pay for the job. I told them it's installed properly by the book or not at all by me. They'll probably get some cowboy in but at least my conscience will be clear
  32. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    yea i agree
  33. chris watkins

    chris watkins Plumber

    What yea you agree I have banged on enough or Yea I agree it applies to both cistern fed systems as well as main fed?
    • Like Like x 1
  34. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    both :D :D