What to charge customers...

[SlimD]

I’m trying to get an idea about what I should be charging as I’ve been told I’m not charging enough.
I don’t want to charge too much as I don’t like the idea of ripping people off but don’t want to be working too cheap either.
I’m in NW Kent.
Can anyone give me an idea of what they charge as:
a) hourly rate
b) day rate for builders and pricework..,

Thank in advance.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Best bet is to get a few friends to call local companies and aske them what they are charging. Bit cheeky but does what you want.

 

[Scott_D]

What do you charge now?

 

[SlimD]

What do you charge now?

£75 for first 2 hours then £40/h
or 180/day for pricework

 

[Scott_D]

You charge less for the first 2 hours than following hours?

 

[Millsy 82]

Best bet is to get a few friends to call local companies and aske them what they are charging. Bit cheeky but does what you want.

That's what I did.

 

[Millsy 82]

£75 for first 2 hours then £40/h
or 180/day for pricework

Change that first 2 hours to first hour (as you lose time driving to and from jobs picking up consumables etc) and up you day rate by about £100 then your talking.

If you work it out
£180x5=£900
£900x46=£41400 (you want your average 28 days holiday at least)

Now take off all of your expenses I bet your between £20k-25k left before tax. And that is assuming you have work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 46 weeks a year, realistically you wont as you will be out pricing jobs you will have down time etc.

 

[oz-plumber]

I don’t want to charge too much as I don’t like the idea of ripping people off but don’t want to be working too cheap either.
Thank in advance.

From that statement, you feel more comfortable ripping yourself off than the customer.

You will never make all customers happy.
Some customers would complain if you charged them 1/2 of what you would normally charge for a job.

 

[Gasmk1]

minimum £250.00 for day work, 1st hour £60.00 then £40.00 each hour after that

 

[Deleted member 32524]

Don't undercharge. It sets a precedent that customers then expect the next time and for their friends and family. You end up being a busy fool for less than you would earn on the books. IMO £80 call out including first hour, same again for return visit 1st hour and £50 per hour after that charged in half hours. Why should we earn less or the same being self employed than when you are on books, just turning up and going home. Truth is when you work for yourself some fool came up with free quotes which wastes sooooo much of my time putting stuff together for people and you don't always get them, you need to organise and pay for insurance, van, PL insurance, fuel etc etc.

Look how much everything else around you has gone up in price in the last decade and you will probably see that gas engineers are charging the same as they were 10 years ago. I know I was until recently.

 

[Gasmk1]

Don't undercharge. It sets a precedent that customers then expect the next time and for their friends and family. You end up being a busy fool for less than you would earn on the books. IMO £80 call out including first hour, same again for return visit 1st hour and £50 per hour after that charged in half hours. Why should we earn less or the same being self employed than when you are on books, just turning up and going home. Truth is when you work for yourself some fool came up with free quotes which wastes sooooo much of my time putting stuff together for people and you don't always get them, you need to organise and pay for insurance, van, PL insurance, fuel etc etc.

Look how much everything else around you has gone up in price in the last decade and you will probably see that gas engineers are charging the same as they were 10 years ago. I know I was until recently.

i found that after 10 years my charges were not that much different to when i first started on my own. its hard to increase charges but as you say costs of everything increases year on year when i first started i had a Fiat doblo van fill up cost £35.00 but after several years fill up cost close to £70.00 and we are expected to swallow up these costs, you are best to institute a yearly rise if you can even if its not much. boilers and parts have increased all manufacturers increase by normally 5% a year.

also do not charge parts and materials to your customers at cost add a handling charge 10% at least. more if the items will stand it.

 

[Millsy 82]

I think it was some one on here said years ago.

If they have a smile on their face your price your too cheap.
If they collapse your too expensive
If they cough turn red and go oh ok then your just right.

Pricing is very difficult to start with I can remember working for a company and I used to do 8/10 small jobs a day and they used to charge me out at £60+vat first hour cant remember after that and I worked it out that during the winter months I would earn them between 500-800 a day, when I went self employed I didnt do the same as I thought would help get me through the door and i used to wince when handing some of the Bill's over problem was I was only getting 2/3 jobs a day then running round pricing etc I charged £30 an hour and would be out all day for £60-£90. One day I was like why am I working so hard for nothing I was going to go back employed but decided to put my prices up I lost 1 or 2 customers but not as many as I thought as i was now charging the same as every one else.

I now know why they charged me out at what they were. It's a shame it took me 6-9 months to work it out.

The other thing which I think is just as important as the correct price is mark up on materials.

 

[Mastermixlee]

Ultimately price does depend on the quality of workmanship you are giving (as is clear when going to clear up some of the shocking work some of the "cheaper" gsr engineers have done).

But your charges are way too low, regardless of where you are in my opinion.

Historically and as a generalisation electricians rates are lower... Yet all the electricians I know are charging at £75+ for the first hour and you are charging that for 2!?

Not sustainable long term in my view.

Look at how much mechanics hourly rates have gone up over the last 10-15 years and then check against our industry. It's shocking.

Typically people are plenty happy and still many sing praises of BG charging ~£380-400 per year to do nothing but a (generally) visual and performance test & gas rate style service.

Price higher, but do a proper job. Need more quality work and higher prices to boot in this industry. You're better to be the one customers eventually make it to (charging higher rates) than either running yourself into the ground or having your quality of work diminish to meet price.

Have the price suit the quality of the work not other way round, and in the process you might find you attract the "better crowd" of customer base while your at it.

Just my 2 pennies worth

 

[SlimD]

Thanks for the advice. I’ll definitely be upping my prices. Just got to decide what to.
I also do general plumbing work too.
Would anyone price that differently to gas work or just one rate for all?

 

[Deleted member 32524]

Same rate.

 

[Mastermixlee]

As Duncan above has said. Same rate.

They're paying for your knowledge, and your charges have to cover your business running costs (which are inherently higher due to gas qualifications, registrations and liability insurances etc).

If your business employed a person who solely did plumbing then the matter may be different, but solo then definitely same rate.

 

[Jim Goodenough]

Haven't read all the threads, however it's easy to under-rate yourself or 'think' your expensive, look at Charlie Mullins!! at the end of the day people will pay for a service... reliability costs money, keep you word, keep the customer informed, don't be afraid to say 'No', or whatever.

 

[Jim Goodenough]

The other thing which I think is just as important as the correct price is mark up on materials.

Hi Millsy, say more about mark up on materials please? I'd say add 50% why not? we've got the expertise to know WHAT to buy, if the custard goes to BnQ etc they'll either buy the wrong item(s) and go back and forth trying to get the right 'widget' ..
Our knowledge is our IP (Intellectual Property) it's worth a fortune... ££££... don't give it away, charge for it..

 

[Millsy 82]

Problem is the customer soon goes on the internet and says the part you've just charged me £100 for I can get for £95 of internet.

I do get fully what your saying and I charge 20% on everything and people moan all the time about that but j explain it and they usually begrudgingly understand. The other thing is on installs people price them that right if you put 20% on materials your 20% higher than the fools who work for a wage not to run a business so install I can only get away with 10%.

 

[Deleted member 32524]

Find out their budget before you waste your time putting quotes together. Everyone has a price in their head of what they think it should cost, do not leave on a first visit without finding out their budget or you have already conditioned them to a price that they have agreed sounds about right, a little higher than you think it will cost. Arrange another visit to present your price at less than they were expecting and try to close the business on that visit and have a date booked in the diary before you leave house.

 

[Harvest Fields]

I never ask there budget.

 

[townfanjon]

IMO you have to “box clever “ with parts mark up , dont take the pi** or you will loose customers.

 

[Welder]

Truth is, everyone is right. We should indeed be paid for keeping up to date, for understanding what is value for money and what is rubbish. Fact is tho people generally buy on a combination of confidence in you as person to a) understand and empathise with their need, b) to do what you say you're going to do and price.

On a personal basis, I have never, ever, accepted a job on price alone. I have always walked away. Why? Because people like that simply will never understand that having pride in the job has a price. If they can't see that then they will only ever be a complete pain in the ar5e.

When pricing, as Jon says, I rarely took the hiss. On my spreadsheet I had a fixed mark up applied to all materials of 20%. Occasionally I'd not be able to get a merchant price so would put in a retail but not often. I always broke down the price into materials (cos it's not just 'parts') and subcontract labour and then my labour as a separate item.

When I won the job, then I would buy as hard as I could vs the time available to improve my overall margin.

I would never detail from where or whom I would buy or, indeed, exactly what because I didn't want to give them the opportunity to pass my hard work onto someone else to knock £50 off and win the job.

IMHO, every single one of us actually knows when we are in front of a 'badun'. By listening to your inner voice and saying to them, "Sorry but it seems I can't do a decent job for the money you wish to spend", and walking away means you will find you have a much happier life. As Dad used to say, "Any bl00dy idiot can work for free!"

When you do a job at a rubbish price, you actually harm not only yourself but the whole industry. When you drop your price because someone does not want to pay, you:

• reinforce the media BS of thieving/overcharging plumbers
• undervalue your own skills
• undervalue the painful years of experience
• let down your own family by selling short their futures

Sorry if its somewhat 'preachy' but this, IMHO, is the single biggest issue facing our industry today. We need to collectively grow a pair and stand up for our skills and desires to do a great job.

BTW. All of the above means you can still do those freebies for little Mrs Wiggins at #45 who's potless. Because she deserves to be helped.

 

[Burger]

Problem is the customer soon goes on the internet and says the part you've just charged me £100 for I can get for £95 of internet.

I would say to that £5 isn’t much of a saving, plus when ordering online there’s increased waiting time for repair to be done. If it’s the same product and cheaper tell them to order it and charge more for fitting

 

[Jerry]

Buckinghamshire here.

£85 for the 1st hour, any additional hour (or part of) is £60. Any materials supplied at trade cost +20% carriage. All +VAT

If you have too much work, put your prices up.
If you have too little work, put your prices down.

I charge £85 for a CP12. I recently had a conversation with an estate agents and they wanted me to price match a CP12 at £35/each........

 

[Millsy 82]

I charge £85 for a CP12. I recently had a conversation with an estate agents and they wanted me to price match a CP12 at £35/each....

And you didnt hear them hang up as you were too busy rolling round on the floor laughing?

 

[Mastermixlee]

Buckinghamshire here.

£85 for the 1st hour, any additional hour (or part of) is £60. Any materials supplied at trade cost +20% carriage. All +VAT

If you have too much work, put your prices up.
If you have too little work, put your prices down.

I charge £85 for a CP12. I recently had a conversation with an estate agents and they wanted me to price match a CP12 at £35/each....

Question about Your rate for the cp12 - do you include the boiler service for that? Or do you charge an additional fee to add boiler service on, gas hob, fire etc.

 

[Millsy 82]

Question about Your rate for the cp12 - do you include the boiler service for that? Or do you charge an additional fee to add boiler service on, gas hob, fire etc.

Most companies that I've worked for do not carry out a boiler service at the same time that is an extra and gets charged.

 

[Jerry]

Question about Your rate for the cp12 - do you include the boiler service for that? Or do you charge an additional fee to add boiler service on, gas hob, fire etc.

CP12 with 2 Appliances is £85+VAT. Additional Appliance is £25/each
CP12 and Boiler Service is £120+VAT

Usually, when an estate agent tells me they can get it cheaper, I try and inform and educate them. I try to explain the time it takes including travel time and then get them to understand they will be getting a rushed botched job. I always try to leave the conversation along the lines of "when it all goes wrong, you will get in trouble".

Some listen, some don't.

Some want to do their jobs to the letter of the law (yay!). Some are trying to make the most money (understandable). Some are afraid to tell landlords that stuff is expensive and costs money.

 

[SlimD]

CP12 with 2 Appliances is £85+VAT. Additional Appliance is £25/each
CP12 and Boiler Service is £120+VAT

Usually, when an estate agent tells me they can get it cheaper, I try and inform and educate them. I try to explain the time it takes including travel time and then get them to understand they will be getting a rushed botched job. I always try to leave the conversation along the lines of "when it all goes wrong, you will get in trouble".

Some listen, some don't.

Some want to do their jobs to the letter of the law (yay!). Some are trying to make the most money (understandable). Some are afraid to tell landlords that stuff is expensive and costs money.

...and some are just greedy bastards!

 

[Millsy 82]

CP12 with 2 Appliances is £85+VAT. Additional Appliance is £25/each
CP12 and Boiler Service is £120+VAT

Usually, when an estate agent tells me they can get it cheaper, I try and inform and educate them. I try to explain the time it takes including travel time and then get them to understand they will be getting a rushed botched job. I always try to leave the conversation along the lines of "when it all goes wrong, you will get in trouble".

Some listen, some don't.

Some want to do their jobs to the letter of the law (yay!). Some are trying to make the most money (understandable). Some are afraid to tell landlords that stuff is expensive and costs money.

I worked for a company years ago that did gas checks cheaper the more the estate agents had. They used it as a way in and to get the remedial work.

 

[Mastermixlee]

CP12 with 2 Appliances is £85+VAT. Additional Appliance is £25/each
CP12 and Boiler Service is £120+VAT

Usually, when an estate agent tells me they can get it cheaper, I try and inform and educate them. I try to explain the time it takes including travel time and then get them to understand they will be getting a rushed botched job. I always try to leave the conversation along the lines of "when it all goes wrong, you will get in trouble".

Some listen, some don't.

Some want to do their jobs to the letter of the law (yay!). Some are trying to make the most money (understandable). Some are afraid to tell landlords that stuff is expensive and costs money.

I've only ever done cp12's with appliance servicing at the same time (both when employed and sub contracted to firms).

What would a cp12 exactly entail if not servicing the appliances as well?

As Ive always thought the safety checks required for cp12 were virtually the same as required in a boiler service?

 

[Jerry]

I've only ever done cp12's with appliance servicing at the same time (both when employed and sub contracted to firms).

What would a cp12 exactly entail if not servicing the appliances as well?

As I've always thought the safety checks required for cp12 were virtually the same as required in a boiler service?

They are fairly similar but there are a number of differences. I think the main one is that with a CP12 you are checking that the appliance is within government standards and that's it. With a service, you are making sure the appliance is within the manufacturer's standards and then fixing them if they are not (within reason).
Somehow, I bet I get my head chewed off here...

 

[Scott_D]

Tightness test on CP12
Checking all appliances in property - not just boiler

 

[Jerry]

Bonding!
Ventilation!
Smoke and CO alarms!

 

[Mastermixlee]

Tightness test on CP12
Checking all appliances in property - not just boiler

Yep know that but meant what would you do on the checks on the boiler itself for a cp12 Vs the checks you'd do on a boiler?

E.g. would you adjust the ratios if need be on a cp12 without a service added onto cost? Or would you advise that a service is required and quote/charge for adjustments etc.

 

[mfgs]

A landlords check is similar to a MOT for a car just an overall check of the safety of the gas installation and appliances. You fill out the boxes with your findings and that’s it. Any additional work it chargeable. When your car goes in for a MOT they don’t do little fixes included in the price. They give you the paperwork stating what needs to be done.

 

[Mastermixlee]

A landlords check is similar to a MOT for a car just an overall check of the safety of the gas installation and appliances. You fill out the boxes with your findings and that’s it. Any additional work it chargeable. When your car goes in for a MOT they don’t do little fixes included in the price. They give you the paperwork stating what needs to be done.

Thought that's what people would be thinking along the lines of.

I've just never done a cp12 without doing a full service on every appliance.

Eg. Always done full strip and clean of gas fires and bbus etc on every cp12 I've done for near 15 years.

Just when people posted they offer standalone cp12 it got me thinking lol.

 

[Jerry]

I always treated the CP12 as a 'snapshot' of the state of the installation at that exact moment in time. It will be used only for insurance purposes if something bad happens.

The MOT analogy is also good. You don't expect the test centre to pop the hood and fiddle with the engine, if the vehicle fails an emissions test? Nope. It gets sent away to have the problem fixed (or scrapped) and then you pay to have the MOT done again!

 

[Harvest Fields]

I’m quite sure that it isn’t a legal requirement to complete a tightness on a CP12.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Cheers for the like @Riley this comment always stirs up a good conversation.

 

[Riley]

I’m sure it’s not obligatory but why wouldn’t you

 

[Harvest Fields]

I’m sure it’s not obligatory but why wouldn’t you

That’s not the point mate

 

[Millsy 82]

I’m quite sure that it isn’t a legal requirement to complete a tightness on a CP12.

You are correct. Although it asks for it on the form so just always do it.

 

[Jerry]

I’m quite sure that it isn’t a legal requirement to complete a tightness on a CP12.

Really? I don't understand how it cannot be the most important requirement.

You are undertaking a series of tests to show that the whole gas system is safe etc. Surely the most fundamental test is to check that the gas is not leaking??? That has to be more important than CO emissions and expiry dates on smoke alarms etc

 

[Mastermixlee]

Interesting.
Sure it'd cause a right fuss if you weren't to so one and something did go wrong due to a gas leak though.

Really? I don't understand how it cannot be the most important requirement.

You are undertaking a series of tests to show that the whole gas system is safe etc. Surely the most fundamental test is to check that the gas is not leaking??? That has to be more important than CO emissions and expiry dates on smoke alarms etc

Sounds odd to me also, but for the sake of a 2 minute test (plus 15 minutes gaining access to the sodding meters sometimes lol) I'd always do one.

I'd if you did a cp12 and didn't do a tightness test and something did to wrong you'd be on the firing line regardless of law.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Interesting.
Sure it'd cause a right fuss if you weren't to so one and something did go wrong due to a gas leak though.


Sounds odd to me also, but for the sake of a 2 minute test (plus 15 minutes gaining access to the sodding meters sometimes lol) I'd always do one.

I'd if you did a cp12 and didn't do a tightness test and something did to wrong you'd be on the firing line regardless of law.

Surely you mean a total of 4 minutes and 15 getting access to it.

 

[Harvest Fields]

How can they fire you for something that isn’t a legal requirement? Unless it is company policy.

 

[Jerry]

Hmmmm.

I use the Sprint Mobile App for my FGA and issuing CP12.

There are 3 options on the Tightness Test - PASS - FAIL - NA

If I select NA, then the cert passes. If I select FAIl, then it fails.

So, Sprint thinks the tightness test is not mandatory. But failing it will cause the cert to fail.


Can someone less lazy than me call GS and settle this?
J

 

[Mastermixlee]

How can they fire you for something that isn’t a legal requirement? Unless it is company policy.

I didn't mean firing as in from your job. More from a having to defend your actions (or lack of) for not performing a tightness test.

Wouldn't take the risk of not doing one personally. I know someone who used to do all the investigations following any gas explosions, co poisoning cases etc. And not having performed a tightness test on a cp12 I'm sure would stick out on the reports and earn a thorough questioning if you were the last one to work at the property.