What electric works can plumbers undertake

[Chuck]

Where are these electricity for plumbers or basic electricity for plumbers courses? any recomendations

Here's an example of the sort of thing I had in mind:

Electricity for Plumbers | Learning for Life | BPEC

The BPEC Electricity for Plumbers course aims to help plumbers and heating engineers who work on central heating electrical control systems to work safely.

bpec.org.uk

I'd always start with a local / regional further education college as their courses are usually good quality and good value. If you're going to spend a significant amount on a course do your research and make sure you understand what you are getting and who will be teaching assessing and accrediting it before signing up.

 

[Ric2013]

While I agree with the opinions being ventured in this thread, I'm not sure whether they answer the question, which was, I think, "technically and legally what should we do?"

Reason I say this is that someone with an Intermediate Amateur Radio Licence is allowed to build his or her own radio (mains powered electrical), having (usually) studied the RSGB material. But then this person is not considered to be electrically qualified. The irony is that while I have been assessed as competent to wire a so-called "13A" (technically a BS1363) plug and build my own amateur radio as far as the RSGB is concerned, I'm not qualified to do so in other fields, even though it's exactly the same plug!

Why is this relevant? It's relevant because the C&G NVQ2 course contains an electrical element.. We are taught how to carry out very basic tasks such as junction boxes and FCUs and the safety aspect at a basic level and then told this isn't a qualification. Why, then, are we being taught this, if it doesn't make us competent? Well, because C&G knows you'll probably end up doing this sort of thing anyway and they'd rather you had at least a basic level of electrical education (my assessor's answer).

Similary, the BPEC course gives you a level of knowledge that then still doesn't make you a competent person. Not that I don't think it's a good idea, though useless to plumbers who lack the ACS CCN CEN gas certificates (pre-requisites). 'It has been designed with plumbing and heating engineers in mind and is limited to work that will NOT involve working on fixed installation of the property and addresses the following scope of work.' So you still wouldn't be legally allowed to do anything except repair the boiler, I take it?

 

[Ben-gee]

Does competent mean having a certificate?

If a third party looks at/tests an installation and all is done to regulations and in a neat/tidy way then they would have to come to the conclusion that it was done competently.

This assessment of the work could not determine who it had been done by...

So does it matter if this was carried out by an electrician, brain surgeon, footballer or trained monkey?

 

[Ric2013]

Does competent mean having a certificate?

If a third party looks at/tests an installation and all is done to regulations and in a neat/tidy way then they would have to come to the conclusion that it was done competently.

This assessment of the work could not determine who it had been done by...

So does it matter if this was carried out by an electrician, brain surgeon, footballer or trained monkey?

Yes, it means a certificate. Hence some of the shoddy electrical work I see was carried out by 'competent' persons.

 

[Murdoch]

Does competent mean having a certificate?

If a third party looks at/tests an installation and all is done to regulations and in a neat/tidy way then they would have to come to the conclusion that it was done competently.

This assessment of the work could not determine who it had been done by...

So does it matter if this was carried out by an electrician, brain surgeon, footballer or trained monkey?

Not just this.

No decent sparks sign off 3rd parties work - why would you?

What I come across is plumbers adding spurs to spurs, disconnecting the main equipotential bonding, and replacing showers without RCD's or a higher rating with insufficient cable size and / or breakers

 

[midsman]

While I agree with the opinions being ventured in this thread, I'm not sure whether they answer the question, which was, I think, "technically and legally what should we do?"

Reason I say this is that someone with an Intermediate Amateur Radio Licence is allowed to build his or her own radio (mains powered electrical), having (usually) studied the RSGB material. But then this person is not considered to be electrically qualified. The irony is that while I have been assessed as competent to wire a so-called "13A" (technically a BS1363) plug and build my own amateur radio as far as the RSGB is concerned, I'm not qualified to do so in other fields, even though it's exactly the same plug!

Why is this relevant? It's relevant because the C&G NVQ2 course contains an electrical element.. We are taught how to carry out very basic tasks such as junction boxes and FCUs and the safety aspect at a basic level and then told this isn't a qualification. Why, then, are we being taught this, if it doesn't make us competent? Well, because C&G knows you'll end up doing this sort of thing anyway and they'd rather you had at least a basic level of electrical education.

Similary, the BPEC course gives you a level of knowledge that then still doesn't make you a competent person. Not that I don't think it's a good idea, though useless to plumbers who lack the ACS CCN CEN gas certificates (pre-requisites). 'It has been designed with plumbing and heating engineers in mind and is limited to work that will NOT involve working on fixed installation of the property and addresses the following scope of work.' So you still wouldn't be legally allowed to do anything except repair the boiler, I take it?

Does competent mean having a certificate?

If a third party looks at/tests an installation and all is done to regulations and in a neat/tidy way then they would have to come to the conclusion that it was done competently.

This assessment of the work could not determine who it had been done by...

So does it matter if this was carried out by an electrician, brain surgeon, footballer or trained monkey?

insurance if something went wrong ? One big consideration is what piece of paper are your insurance company going want to see if anything you do goes wrong.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Not just this.

No decent sparks sign off 3rd parties work - why would you?

What I come across is plumbers adding spurs to spurs, disconnecting the main equipotential bonding, and replacing showers without RCD's or a higher rating with insufficient cable size and / or breakers

Same as if gas engineers sign off other engineers installs(you wouldnt)

 

[Ric2013]

Not just this.

'All to regulations' includes the fact that the original installer either notified to Building Control and had independent testing carried (in England - think Wales is slightly different) or was a member of a competent person scheme. Not just doing notifiable work well but without being able to leave the relevant certification.

The insurance question is a good point. Which is why I suggested working alongside a friendly electrician. That said, I have replaced a valve actuator by myself. Not notifiable, and I'm not sure how much testing a real electrician would be doing, but possibly I've not tested to the BS. Admittedly, I suppose it's a risk.

I have in the past installed a shower pump in an airing cupboard, agreed to do the plumbing side but not the electrical side, i.e. comission the pump with a plug on the end of the flexible cable, and then remove the plug, leaving the customer to get an electrician in to wire it in to the manufacturer's specifications, as indicated on my invoice. If the customer then ignores my advice and refits a plug, that's up to the customer.

 

[gpbeck]

You can hold a certificate yet be incompetent. You can be competent without holding a certificate and perform work of a very high quality without any qualification. This is how things used to be. Now an industry has developed to charge for training and then for registration, another tax upon trade. Things may well be better under this new system, but not always because mistakes still happen. Try buying a new build.

Competent just means “having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully”.

 

[midsman]

'All to regulations' includes the fact that the original installer either notified to Building Control and had independent testing carried (in England - think Wales is slightly different) or was a member of a competent person scheme. Not just doing notifiable work well but without being able to leave the relevant certification.

The insurance question is a good point. Which is why I suggested working alongside a friendly electrician. That said, I have replaced a valve actuator by myself. Not notifiable, and I'm not sure how much testing a real electrician would be doing, but possibly I've not tested to the BS. Admittedly, I suppose it's a risk.

I have in the past installed a shower pump in an airing cupboard, agreed to do the plumbing side but not the electrical side, i.e. comission the pump with a plug on the end of the flexible cable, and then remove the plug, leaving the customer to get an electrician in to wire it in to the manufacturer's specifications, as indicated on my invoice. If the customer then ignores my advice and refits a plug, that's up to the customer.

Would you replace a broken shower pump. I.e plumbing side and also unwire old pump from fcu and wire in the new one to fcu or would you get a spark to connect the 3 wires? The same for a zone valve would you replace one for like and do wiring into wiring centre?

would you replace broken immersion heater in water cylinder and wire that to fcu

it’s the sort of thing that a lot of heating engineers / plumbers do but should they?

it’s such a grey area I’m beginning to wonder if it’s worth the risk. It seems to me these like for like component jobs are a two person job plumber and spark.

I’m trying to find a definitive answer as to who can wire into an fcu

practically competent and legally competent are different I think .In the end insurers etc are going to want to see evidence that you have the skill and knowledge to do something. Sadly I think this means a bit of paper

 

[Ric2013]

Would you replace a broken shower pump. I.e plumbing side and also unwire old pump from fcu and wire in the new one to fcu or would you get a spark to connect the 3 wires? The same for a zone valve would you replace one for like and do wiring into wiring centre?

would you replace broken immersion heater in water cylinder and wire that to fcu

it’s the sort of thing that a lot of heating engineers / plumbers do but should they?

it’s such a grey area I’m beginning to wonder if it’s worth the risk. It seems to me these like for like component jobs are a two person job plumber and spark.

I'd do them because it's not notifiable work, being like for like. It would depend on the customer and also if I felt the existing electrical system was up to current standards or whether it was essentially running on grandfather rights.

What I would comment, however, is that, legally, I probably shouldn't because testing with a 1960s AVO8, if at all, is not to standard, but at least I can check the earth is connected. If I had a lot of this work, then I would pay for the training and the calibrated tools, but in the meantime there is, sadly, a limit to how much work I'm able to turn down. What I would say though is that the instances of court cases and prosecution of which I am aware generally invole a far greater level of negligence than mine.

 

[midsman]

Would you replace a broken shower pump. I.e plumbing side and also unwire old pump from fcu and wire in the new one to fcu or would you get a spark to connect the 3 wires? The same for a zone valve would you replace one for like and do wiring into wiring centre?

it’s the sort of thing I know

would you replace broken immersion heater in water cylinder and wire that to fcu

I'd do them because it's not notifiable work, being like for like. It would depend on the customer and also if I felt the existing electrical system was up to current standards or whether it was essentially running on grandfather rights.

What I would comment, however, is that, legally, I probably shouldn't because testing with a 1960s AVO8, if at all, is not to standard, but at least I can check the earth is connected. If I had a lot of this work, then I would pay for the training and the calibrated tools, but in the meantime there is, sadly, a limit to how much work I'm able to turn down. What I would say though is that the instances of court cases and prosecution of which I am aware generally invole a far greater level of negligence than mine.

thank for your reply. It’s more of the insurance issues if the house is damage or customer gets hurt than the prosecution side. Insurance companies will always try not to pay.

 

[Ric2013]

thank for your reply. It’s more of the insurance issues if the house is damage or customer gets hurt than the prosecution side. Insurance companies will always try not to pay.

Agreed. I'd only do it if I were 100% confident in the work. Obviously the customer getting hurt is a big one.

 

[Murdoch]

'All to regulations' includes the fact that the original installer either notified to Building Control and had independent testing carried (in England - think Wales is slightly different) or was a member of a competent person scheme. Not just doing notifiable work well but without being able to leave the relevant certification.

The insurance question is a good point. Which is why I suggested working alongside a friendly electrician. That said, I have replaced a valve actuator by myself. Not notifiable, and I'm not sure how much testing a real electrician would be doing, but possibly I've not tested to the BS. Admittedly, I suppose it's a risk.

I have in the past installed a shower pump in an airing cupboard, agreed to do the plumbing side but not the electrical side, i.e. comission the pump with a plug on the end of the flexible cable, and then remove the plug, leaving the customer to get an electrician in to wire it in to the manufacturer's specifications, as indicated on my invoice. If the customer then ignores my advice and refits a plug, that's up to the customer.

absolutely nothing wrong with plugging the pump in ....

 

[midsman]

absolutely nothing wrong with plugging the pump in ..

Could you wire the pump into fcu for example when replacing a broken pump or should that need an electrician to wire the 3 wires in

the same for the immersion heater and zone valve? - working them into to the fcu and the wiring centre