Vertical Flue Termination

[PriestyUK]

Hi lads, just been to price a job to replace a OLD big bad boy Ferroli combi boiler which is in a habitable loft space. My problem is the current vertical flue terminates in between two opening velux windows 900mm one side and 400mm the other, pretty much in line, not above them and not below them. Told him this is unsafe and wont meet current standards when I install the new boiler (Viessmann 100-W 30kW Combi) His a chippy by trade, if he converted these windows properly to not open ever again and not by just thumping in a few screws would this then pass reg wise? His not keen on relocating the boiler to be fair Current boiler is proper ducked, and I have isolated and made safe anyhow. Pretty much got the job as his a good mate but your views will be greatly welcomed

 

[lame plumber]

No you cant as when he sells the place and newbies reopen the windows then what, why not use some 45s and reroute the flue to a safe termination. In case you think you can get away with it, take note a gsr chappie is now doing time for a similar thing when someone then died in a cornish hotel

 

[PriestyUK]

No real room to 45 it to gain any real improvement

 

[lame plumber]

then you had better find an alternative or your bum will be hung out to dry if it goes wrong in years to come

 

[AWheating]

if the windows are fixed and require tools and work to open them then id be happy. If somebody else moves in and puts in new windows then they have broken the regs, not the person fitting the boiler years before. Put something in writing to cover yourself, take pictures etc.....

i could fit a boiler and next week some builder could fit a vent next to the flue, whos fault is it? not blummin mine. We are all responsible for our own actions, if i brake the electrical regs i cant blame the spark who was last there.

 

[lame plumber]

sorry got it wrong they ended up being fined, have a read AW you may change your mind Cornish gas contractor guilty of breaching gas safety regs - HavMain Blog

Contractors fined over gas death | News | Heating and Ventilation News

 

[AWheating]

seems to me there are a few issues to this story, he used the wrong flue terminal? he was only guilty of breaching the regs not causing the death?


no mention of the window company? mmmm......


one contradiction i find strange is extractor fans, they are fitted by sparks without no concern for the effects on open flued appliances. So whos to fault in that situation? the last guy to service the fire before the fan was fitted? or the sparks? or the fan manufacturere for not stating open flued appliances must not be used until check after the installation?

 

[lame plumber]

having taken quite an interest being fairly close he copped it as the flue was adjacent to an opening, sealed or not, if he had bricked up the window, no issue to him so the op could get the veluxes out and tile the roof and talke phots to be sure

 

[hammers4spanner]

Im with lame on this as live down by cornwall and recall this story so imho its not worth the hassle do it properly in first instance.

Or how would you feel you seal the windows shut get owner to sign paper saying never ever going to re-open window and you walk away with nice sum of money . Two weeks later they get the gsr paperwork through and they decide to take up offer of free inspection and they condemn termination and you get letter saying relocate flue .

I bet you any money you would be doing it for nothing then so just as well do it properly first instance

 

[Millsy 82]

sorry got it wrong they ended up being fined, have a read AW you may change your mind Cornish gas contractor guilty of breaching gas safety regs - HavMain Blog

Contractors fined over gas death | News | Heating and Ventilation News

From reading that story it sounds as though they used the wrong terminal (Vertical flue kit for horizontal termination) and nailed the window shut. If the window had of been replaced with a non opening window and the correct termination had been used then they would not of been in breach of the regs.

I understand what your saying about not taking chances but if you did everything with what ifs you would never fit an appliance again because what if a builder comes in and builds an extension over a flue. We can only work with whats there now not what could be done in the future. If you talk to the customer and they say about any future plans then obviously you can work round it.

 

[gassafe]

The sad reality is, the op will put a price in to meet modern regs adding an awful lot more onto the quotation....
the homeowner, wanting to save a few pennies will go with the cheapest quote, the chap who screwed the velux shut!

 

[PriestyUK]

Veluxs is getting removed this weekend and sealed windows going in that can not be opened so he can keep boiler where is and still have day light up there. After that is completed I will go back and install boiler

 

[gassafe]

Veluxs is getting removed this weekend and sealed windows going in that can not be opened so he can keep boiler where is and still have day light up there. After that is completed I will go back and install boiler

Could you not have just hidden the stick & hook they use to open the velux...

 

[PriestyUK]

Thought about it but even 5ft 5 of me can reach them, swear this loft space was designed for midgets. Getting some stickers made warning that this window is not a opening window for a reason etc. Would of loved the work moving the boiler etc but he just didnt want the expense he'd rather as a chippy remove the opening velux and replace with a sealed unit. Plus side getting to use my new magna cleanse for the 1st time that I brought last week and install the new magna clean posh job or what

 

[lame plumber]

Veluxs is getting removed this weekend and sealed windows going in that can not be opened so he can keep boiler where is and still have day light up there. After that is completed I will go back and install boiler

what happens when its all sold and someone puts in an opening window as happened in cornwall, from my understanding dear old beak found the gsr guilty as he saw the window as an opening in the wall, despite it being sealed originally. I would ask gas safe to confirm it is ok first

 

[kay-jay]

what happens when its all sold and someone puts in an opening window as happened in cornwall, from my understanding dear old beak found the gsr guilty as he saw the window as an opening in the wall, despite it being sealed originally. I would ask gas safe to confirm it is ok first

Won't matter. My understanding is that res have to be adhered to at the time of installation. Alterations after the fact cannot be the responsibility of the engineer.

I would however advise that photographic evidence of a non opening window be recorded and time/date stamped

 

[Millsy 82]

I always used to write it into my quote that certain things had to be done before the work was done and get it signed so that I had written proof that it was done.

As I said though you cant fit something to suit what is not there otherwise you wouldnt be able to fit anything otherwise what happens if you fit a boiler somewhere and somebody decides to fit a window next to it. How can you be held responsible for that.

 

[Millsy 82]

He ordered a boiler flue attached to the hotels wall and told a colleague to nail the window above it shut. The windows were subsequently replaced and were allowed to be opened.
A health and safety expert explained: “This terminal is only suitable for the roof and the choice to put this terminal on the side of the wall was totally wrong. I’ve never seen a terminal like this attached to a wall before.”

This quite clearly states that the flue was installed incorrectly and the window was only NAILED shut not replaced for a non opening window so therefore in breach of regs from the time it was installed

 

[lame plumber]

He ordered a boiler flue attached to the hotels wall and told a colleague to nail the window above it shut. The windows were subsequently replaced and were allowed to be opened.
A health and safety expert explained: “This terminal is only suitable for the roof and the choice to put this terminal on the side of the wall was totally wrong. I’ve never seen a terminal like this attached to a wall before.”

This quite clearly states that the flue was installed incorrectly and the window was only NAILED shut not replaced for a non opening window so therefore in breach of regs from the time it was installed

Mr Fitton said Mingo told a colleague to hammer two two-inch nails through the bathroom window when the pipe was installed in 2005, preventing it from opening as a solution to stop carbon monoxide being pumped into the room.
According to one of Mingo's colleagues, the defendant was "making his instructions up as he went along".
Hodge, said Mr Fitton, later agreed the boiler safe for use.
Mr Fitton added: "There is no documentation that Mr Mingo or Mr Hodge told the hotel of what they had done or the necessity of doing it."
Subsequently, when the hotel replaced its windows during a refurbishment in 2007, the new window could be fully opened.


Read more: Hotel death, faulty boiler | manslaughter charges | Jonathan Mingo & Phillip Hodge | Great Western Hotel, Newquay | Frederick Jackson death | Western Morning News | This is Cornwall
Follow us: @thisiscornwall on Twitter | thisiscornwall on Facebook the fact the hotel then replaced the window woth an opening one then allowed the fumes in that killed the poor sod. the ones who got the blame for that were the gsr chaps, if the window had been left alone no issues apart from the wrong flue type, but fumes werent getting in to start!

 

[Millsy 82]

Mr Fitton said Mingo told a colleague to hammer two two-inch nails through the bathroom window when the pipe was installed in 2005, preventing it from opening as a solution to stop carbon monoxide being pumped into the room.
According to one of Mingo's colleagues, the defendant was "making his instructions up as he went along".
Hodge, said Mr Fitton, later agreed the boiler safe for use.
Mr Fitton added: "There is no documentation that Mr Mingo or Mr Hodge told the hotel of what they had done or the necessity of doing it."
Subsequently, when the hotel replaced its windows during a refurbishment in 2007, the new window could be fully opened.


Read more: Hotel death, faulty boiler | manslaughter charges | Jonathan Mingo & Phillip Hodge | Great Western Hotel, Newquay | Frederick Jackson death | Western Morning News | This is Cornwall
Follow us: @thisiscornwall on Twitter | thisiscornwall on Facebook the fact the hotel then replaced the window woth an opening one then allowed the fumes in that killed the poor sod. the ones who got the blame for that were the gsr chaps, if the window had been left alone no issues apart from the wrong flue type, but fumes werent getting in to start!

So are you skipping over the part of the flue being incorrect? If it had been replaced with a non opening window and noted on a quote that this needs to be done or something like that your rear is covered.

The reason they got fined is bad workmanship by the sounds of the report.

 

[kay-jay]

Mr Fitton said Mingo told a colleague to hammer two two-inch nails through the bathroom window when the pipe was installed in 2005, preventing it from opening as a solution to stop carbon monoxide being pumped into the room.
According to one of Mingo's colleagues, the defendant was "making his instructions up as he went along".
Hodge, said Mr Fitton, later agreed the boiler safe for use.
Mr Fitton added: "There is no documentation that Mr Mingo or Mr Hodge told the hotel of what they had done or the necessity of doing it."
Subsequently, when the hotel replaced its windows during a refurbishment in 2007, the new window could be fully opened.


Read more: Hotel death, faulty boiler | manslaughter charges | Jonathan Mingo & Phillip Hodge | Great Western Hotel, Newquay | Frederick Jackson death | Western Morning News | This is Cornwall
Follow us: @thisiscornwall on Twitter | thisiscornwall on Facebook the fact the hotel then replaced the window woth an opening one then allowed the fumes in that killed the poor sod. the ones who got the blame for that were the gsr chaps, if the window had been left alone no issues apart from the wrong flue type, but fumes werent getting in to start!

Should have got a proper defence....

Joking aside nails only constitute a temporary situation and not a permanent one as a non opening window (with evidence ) would be.

Any future alteration would be down to either the window fitter or the owner or a combination of the two imo

 

[lame plumber]

who ever replaced the window should have been included in the court process, but its easier to do the numpty who used the wrong flue, if that had been correct the outcome woukd have been harder to prove, as one error led to another and so on. so blame the first error maker. Not saying they were blameless but others should have been in front of the beak as well. But its easier to blame the "experts" so cover your arese, personally photos are a waste of space imho as if the judge is laying blame they wont defend you. If it was me, the roof would be tiled over and or the window moved he is a chippy so not an issue then theres no chance of it falling back in your lap in the future if you have photos of a blank roof.

 

[lame plumber]

just another thought, all windows have to have trickle ventilators now to comply with building regs, watch out for that one

 

[PriestyUK]

Building Regulations now require that EVERY new build property is to be fitted with trickle vents.Building Regulations also require that if your home already has trickle vents fitted then you will have to have trickle vents fitted to your replacement windows. IF your property doesn’t have trickle vents fitted then you will not have to go to the expense of having trickle vents fitted to your replacement windows unless, of course, you want to.

Guess what, no trickle vents

 

[lame plumber]

oooh fibber, veluxes have trickle vents