Removing old push fit elbow

[rogdee]

Hi, new to this forum. I have a leak from a plastic push fit elbow. It is grey and marked HBP 15, my research so far says this is an old style hepworth fitting? It doesn't appear to be easily dismountable, but is there an easy way. It is on my central heating system connecting the main pipe to a radiator. (Plastic pipe in concrete - HBP 15 fitting - copper pipe to rad valve.) I have had to chisel out concrete to get at the joint and a short length of pipe. Because of the concrete I guess, the plastic pipe is a bit scratched and marked but not seriously damaged. Will I still be able to make good connections with this pipe using new push fit connectors or would brass compression be a better option. I think this fitting has been installed for approx 15/20 years, we have lived here 11 years and had been altered quite a while before. The leak is actually caused because it seems that whoever fitted the solid wood laminate flooring did not leave any real clearance around the rad pipe and expansion of the wood over the years i guess has semi-squashed the copper pipe coming out of the top side of the elbow. Sorry if I have rambled on a bit but any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[mountainman]

Hi rodgee
A piccy would have helped but I suspect that this fitting isnt demountable in the true sense.
You cal dismantle some by undoing the nuts completely, removing the elbow etc and cutting off the grip ring.
If you have damaged the surface of the pipe then another pushfit will probably leak.
Your stuck then with using compression.
Don't forget the inserts though.

 

[Koogatubac]

Am i right that your cant use plastic in concrete?

Is it copper pipe in the concrete or plastic?

Putting a push fit fitting onto a pipe in concrete is a big no no isnt it?

 

[Koogatubac]

Rodgee,

Is its a short run in concrete? Or is their alot of pipework in there?

I would never put plastic in concrete, ALWAYS copper wrapped in plastic coating and DENSO tape (belting braces)

If you can get pictures that would really help all of us out, think us plumbers like pictures lol some reason you get alot responding lol

 

[mountainman]

Am i right that your cant use plastic in concrete?

Is it copper pipe in the concrete or plastic?

Putting a push fit fitting onto a pipe in concrete is a big no no isnt it?

OP says it's been there for 15-20 years.
Not bad IMHO.

 

[rogdee]

Thanks for replies so far... sorry a bit slow to respond, had to pop out. The plastic pipe I can see is just in concrete, no conduit, insulation or anything. What I can see is just part of a long length I presume, that disappears further into the concrete floor! It took me forever, working carefully, to get it chiselled out as far as I have so far. The elbow has no parts that screw or move as far as I can tell but not too good to get at. I will go and take a pic and if I can work out how will post it here in a few mins.
Thanks again.

 

[glenno1]

A pic of fitting will help us(awaiting).Rather than struggle,i would take concrete back about 6-8inches to give you space,remove fitting,clean it all up and replace with new fitting

 

[rogdee]

Couple of pics here, hope they may make things more clear.

 

[mountainman]

Cut the plastic back, fit a compression coupling and renew the pipe right up to the rad valve.
Use comp elbow if you can't solder then test, insulate and make good.

 

[Koogatubac]

Think its a bit late for doing the proper way mountainman, hes done extremely well not to damage the plastic pipe btw!! I could imagine it took a long time? Lol

Im personally suprised the plastic pipe hasnt collapsed. But over 15-20yrs been in concrete its done really well!!

Go with mountainman, i would:

- remove the copper tail (since its squashed like hell above the plastic elbow)
- remove the HEP elbow
- replace with a compression elbow
- use jet blue on the olives (or any other compound you feel is worthy)
- renew the copper tail, with a brand new olive for the rad valve

You could put some insulation on. Also give the copper thats going to be lying in the concrete some wraps of plastic coating (i.e. thick electrician tape (get a good wall barrier))

 

[Koogatubac]

Still dont like the fact that the plumbers put plastic in concrete like...

What do you other plumbers think about this? Also back 15-20yrs ago, alot of the trade was using copper

 

[rogdee]

Thanks mountainman. Don't want to seem too thick but..... !!! Can I just clarify. So you mean cut the plastic elbow off completely, fit a straight compression coupler to plastic pipe, then use copper pipe from coupler to a compression/or soldered elbow, then copper pipe up to rad valve? Can I cut the plastic pipe with a copper pipe tube cutter as I don't have a pair of the fancy plastic pipe plier/cutters that all the info I read says you must use rather than a hacksaw?
Cheers.

Oops sorry, one more thing. To connect the plastic pipe to a brass coupler, do I need to put an insert in the end of the plastic pipe (metal or plastic?) and then just put the olive on as with copper fittings?

 

[Koogatubac]

To get the HEP fitting off

- Unscrew the nut either side until you feel a resistance (will make you feel to put more force into unscrewing
- the 'grab ring' will now be exposed which is the small collar thats attached to the pipe
- push the elbow to the pipe, while pushing it pull the 'grab ring' into the elbow, give it a wiggle
You will have dismantled the whole fitting off the pipe.

Do the same for the opposite side of the pipe that you want to take off

 

[rogdee]

Just out of interest, my property is a bungalow, built in 1989 and all original plumbing for the heating in copper and all under concrete floors (don't know if it is in any sort of channelling or anything). Previous owners added an extension in approx 1995/6 and all the extension of heating system is done in plastic pipe, again under concrete. Over the years I have done quite a lot of work around the house and come to the conclusion that the original property was very well built and everything done to a good standard but whoever did the extension was probably a relation of John Wayne or Wyatt Earp or........ well you get the idea I guess. If you guys think the plumbing was a bit dodgy, you should have seen the electrical work when we first came here!!

 

[Koogatubac]

When your working on any plastic, you ALWAYS need to use the SAME pipe inserts! (cant mix and match)

Sometimes it can hold for few hours then pop comes off and leaks everywhere lol

If you can get the elbow off the pipe then you can just replace with a compression 90*, if you cant, you will need to cut the pipe so far back so you can get a HEP/compression straight on (with insert in plastic pipe) then you can do a soldered elbow to rad valve

# make sure you do your soldering AWAY from the plastic pipe. Dont have it all pushed together and start soldering as theres a risk you'll do damage to the plastic #

 

[mountainman]

Don't believe all you read.
Cut the plastic pipe with a hacksaw blade.
Fit a comp coupling and tnsert to cut end then re-run rest in copper.

 

[Koogatubac]

Just out of interest, my property is a bungalow, built in 1989 and all original plumbing for the heating in copper and all under concrete floors (don't know if it is in any sort of channelling or anything). Previous owners added an extension in approx 1995/6 and all the extension of heating system is done in plastic pipe, again under concrete. Over the years I have done quite a lot of work around the house and come to the conclusion that the original property was very well built and everything done to a good standard but whoever did the extension was probably a relation of John Wayne or Wyatt Earp or........ well you get the idea I guess. If you guys think the plumbing was a bit dodgy, you should have seen the electrical work when we first came here!!

Alot of its due to the horrible factor of cost!

I quoted for a full heating, some heatings were going in concrete and i stated you need to use copper. She said other plumbers have said they will do 99% of the whole system in plastic

Main factors are Plastic is easier to work with, faster to install, cheaper HOWEVER

rodents find it very tasty and get excited when they knaul through it and get sprayed by 1.5bar of pressure, more prone to leaks (10-15* tollerance)

I prefer the old fashioned way of copper as when you solder a joint you know fine well if you've created a proper joint. Lasts alot longer. Looks more professional etc

Unfortunately where i am, everybodys getting plastic thrown in. All due to cost

Same goes for other trades i would imagine. Look at new houses compared to old, for a laugh i was on site and ran through the partician walls to prove how bad they were. (joiners got it all on camera and was on youtube for a laugh XD) cant beat strong walls and all the old fashioned ways

 

[Koogatubac]

Don't believe all you read.
Cut the plastic pipe with a hacksaw blade.
Fit a comp coupling and tnsert to cut end then re-run rest in copper.

Just got to file the end and make sure theres no burs. MI state you need a 'clean cut' you can make it clean by filing, cleaning etc

 

[rogdee]

Thanks again mountainman and Koogatubac. Think it will be the cut back pipe and use compression coupler method. Just by the way Koogatubac you posted that I should be able to get the hep fitting off by unscrewing nuts and then cutting off grab ring etc. Don't know if I am missing something, maybe I need glasses, but the old fitting doesn't seem to have any parts that screw apart, just looks like pipe has pushed in and nothing to tighten up. Is that possible, where some of the old fittings like that?
Where do I get pipe insert for plastic pipe before putting coupler on, can I pick them up in B&Q or similar?
It is great to be able to get advice from you guys by the way.
Cheers.

 

[Dotty]

Try your local plumbers merchants, because you're only after one insert you may get it free!

 

[rogdee]

Thanks for that croppie, good idea. Maybe send mrs wifey.......... she is prettier than me!!!!

 

[Koogatubac]

A DIY merchant like B&Q wont be able to help you at all with this.

I think those fittings are similar to speedfit:



To get the inserts for this, if you manage to get the plastic elbow off the plastic pipe you can reuse that insert.
OR
If you decide to cut the plastic and put a compression straight then renew to rad valve you could take the plastic that you've cut off and go to a leading plumbing merchant such as: plumb centre, crosslings, plumbase, PTS etc

They will look at it and try different inserts or try to remove the elbow for you to get the insert out

 

[Koogatubac]

Thanks for that croppie, good idea. Maybe send mrs wifey.......... she is prettier than me!!!!

Yeah!! Send the wife in, they are normally the best to get freebies!! Men are suckers for the female race...

 

[JCplumb]

IMO it's not going to cost much to get a plumber in who will sort this for you in no time. That way you know it will be done right and the work will be guaranteed/insured.

 

[JCplumb]

Oh and you'll be there forever trying to unscrew that fitting, it doesn't unscrew. It's also not one of the fittings in the picture above

 

[TBServices]

It's a slimline hep fitting, not demountable.


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[rogdee]

Thanks TB and JC, thats what I thought that it could not be uscrewed! Yeah JC I have thought about getting a plumber but I don't know anyone in the trade and not had to use a plumber before, well not for a long time now anyway. So do I just close my eyes and pick one out of yellow pages? How much do you reckon.... £30/40 or are we into £100's or more?
Just a note, the last time I ever did use a plumber, was a guy recommended to me by a local businessman. He was going to plumb in a dishwasher for me. First thing he did was turn off cold supply and then cut through the hot pipe under kitchen sink. Not the most impressed I have ever been and been a bit wary ever since, but again I don't profess to be a 'good' plumber myself.
Cheers.

 

[mountainman]

You could post on this forum under 'I'm looking for a plumber'

 

[rogdee]

Just one more thought...... at risk of sounding really stupid, I presume there is no way I am going to be able to do this repair without draining down the whole system?
Thanks again.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

it all depends what type of system you have really. if you have a normal boiler with loft tanks or a combi boiler.

 

[mountainman]

Just one more thought...... at risk of sounding really stupid, I presume there is no way I am going to be able to do this repair without draining down the whole system?
Thanks again.

Yeah! A silly question.
Either go for it or get someone in who can...

 

[JCplumb]

If you're happy to drain down it will reduce the price as you will be saving the plumber time, he will need to refill to be sure the fix is sound, at a guess I'd say it will be less than £100, probably talking about an hour(ish) work with very little materials needed. Inhibitor will be needed after a drain down too, currently <£10 at toolstation for Corgi brand if I remember correctly although the plumber may be happier to supply stuff he knows and trusts which may cost a little more.
Remember though, you'll get a guaranteed and insured job and you know it will be done right.

 

[codcutter]

That is a NON demountable Hepworth fitting, only way to get that off is by cutting the pipe, and as for fiting plastic pipe in concrete etc, nothing wrong with it as long as the pipe is pressurised before the concrete or screed is laid. Underfloor heating is plastic pipe